The Born This Way/ Express Yourself saga continues! Our last chapter in the story had Madonna showing us that though she may be the Queen of Pop, it isn't the only crown she wears with pride, being the undisputed Queen of shade, too.
Not content with just singing her classic hit Express Yourself on her latest tour, Madonna decided to highlight the similarities many of us heard between it and Lady Gaga's Born This Way by creating a medley of the two songs [listen here]. But not keen on leaving it for the fans to decide what her intentions were for doing so, the medley ended with the repeated chant of "She's not me". Subtle, right?
Well, the jibes seems to have gotten to Lady Gaga and she finally referenced the situation- though not mentioning any names while doing so- during her performance of Hair in Auckland, New Zealand.
Check out what Lady Gaga had to say below (starts 2.31)
Off topic but, she sounds very congested and nasal when she was talking. Was she sick?
ReplyDeleteUgh, couldn't even get past the first 49 seconds of ego tripping BS but if that is the speech I read about over on LovingAnthony's..talk about passive-aggressively playing the victim. Double UGH!
ReplyDeleteMaybe that's all the plane traveling?
ReplyDeleteWhat a sermon!
ReplyDeleteI can see clearly now it's all about music. I was totally wrong assuming it was all about income.
Funny enough both of them (Madonna and Gaga) are the same species. The only difference is the former IS the Queen and the latter is pretender to the crown.
Right On T!
ReplyDeleteOf course now you belong to the "haters" and will have to prove you are a musician yourself. If not, you have no right to criticize . ;D
What Madonna did was extremely rude though. Gaga responded appropriately.
ReplyDeleteThat's a pity it works the same way almost everywhere - you are not allowed to criticize unless you prove you have right to do so. "Want criticize? Do it yourself better and prove you know better!" - some seem to say. What about feckin' freedom of speech? Gone for lunch?;D
ReplyDeleteAs for Lady Gaga, she has tough job to do. It's hard to be innovative, provocative and self-aware in the times after Madonna. She follows Madonna's footsteps but there's not many boundaries left to break. Madge did it before. She changed pop culture. I mean female sexuality issues (object vs. subject), gender issues and so on.
I'm not a fan. I just can see Madonna's contribution to popular music and most important culture. That's long way to go for Gaga.
Yes, that pretty much sums up my position on Madonna v. Gaga as well. And I am not a Madonna fan either.
ReplyDeleteBut I do admit, outside of their rivalry issue, personally I feel Madonna had the catchier tunes. I am willing to bet more non Madonna fans can hum one of her songs than non Gaga fans can hum one of her's.
Agree! I'm generally rock/blues/folk oriented and I must admit I quite like "Ray of Light" album. Catchier tunes indeed and more complex music arrangement. I can find something interesting for me in almost each of her songs. Well, almost. Sometimes it's mood, sometimes it's melody, sometimes it's instrumental insertion. And beat usually is not over...something...(I can't find right word for that;))) (overpowering? overwhelming?)
ReplyDeleteSorry, English is not my native language (as most likely you've already learnt).
and this response is why Gaga is a Lady.
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't understand why people continue to compare Madonna and Gaga in this way. How can you compare a 30+ year career to Gaga who's career is barely 5years old, or even Britney. I believe that Madonna has made amazing contributions to "the industry" and Pop culture as a whole(which without Her) Gaga would not be the same today. However to try and line them up side by side, tit for tat is rather unfair. Gaga has a much longer road to go to prove, overcome and achieve much like Madonna has. Who knows what she will accomplish if given Madonna's time frame
Yes that's what I meant. I am more into acoustic music or the old divas myself and also find a little more to like in Madonnas tunes than the present pop music.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I did not realize English is not your native language. Maybe because it isn't mine either?
If you don't feel it's private, what IS your native language? Mine is Dutch.
That only works if you assume the comparison is between Madonna's full career v. Gaga's so far. I don't know about other people but the reason I compare is because I see a significant resemblance in their work. Not career achievements on a whole.
ReplyDeleteWhether you believe it or not, I had no stake in this whole issue since I basically care for neither's work. I just am old enough to have seen Madonna pass through while I myself was into very different music and to now see Gaga pass through while I am into very different music and I simply cannot help but see the resemblances and draw what I think are the obvious conclusions.
Polish.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I expected something more from Oranje last night.
ReplyDeleteLOL I didn't. As so often they suffered from their own egos and over confidence. Anyway haven't been a supporter since Cruijff quit and after their disgraceful behavior during the last WC final I really really don't support them. I am pro England mostly but would also like to see Spain do well again or the Greeks manage another stunning upset.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, your team definitely did better equalizing
Would it be denigrating for me to say I am impressed? Don't mean it that way but I somehow still expect a polish dude to do well in German or Russian but not so much English. But that's probably showing my age again ;D
ReplyDeleteWell, times got changed.
ReplyDeleteThey have indeed and for the better one hopes. :)
ReplyDeleteGo on the field and do it better instead of criticizing;D
ReplyDeleteIt was real pleasure to watch them when Hiddink was a coach as well.
Hahaha whatever my football skills are, they for sure are better than my singing or instrumentals. ;)
ReplyDeleteHere's the only clear difference between the controversy used by Madonna and Gaga. Madonna leads with confidence whereas Gaga yet again plays the role of the child being bullied making her look better as a person and Madonna worse as one as well. Its bringing attention to both and the effects aren't new to either so there should really be no difference in their careers minus the animosity of the younger generation. I wish some of the older members of the gay community could slap some sense into my peers because honestly some of the younger generation truly believes that Gaga is very inventive where in reality she isn't. I'm in no way saying Madonna is either but she actually made a career out of the ideas she borrowed. From what I've seen Gaga is not only copying her ideas (which many have done) but what makes her worse is that she is mimicking Madonna's actual career. I admire Gaga's ideals and activism (if she truly cares that is or if she is just trying to preserve herself as a star) But Gaga as an artist i could live without. I was hoping the Born this way era could showcase more originality from the Vocalist but instead the mimicry becomes worse.
ReplyDeleteI agree totally Brian but I would like to add that I also wish I could slap some sense into the heads of the younger members of our community into not going along with this woman as some kind of spokeswoman for that community. I wish they would chose like an actual gay person for that role. ;D
ReplyDeleteIt's quite funny how a 53 year old who has been working in the music industry for thirty plus years can throw childish jabs at a 26 year old and people say it's funny, but when a 26 year old states that throwing childish jabs at people does not make her feel good about herself, she is pegged as an immature child who is playing the victim.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think you guys understand what “pulling the victim card” means. When someone starts an argument and then tries to act innocent, that is
pulling the victim card ”. In this case, that is not what happened. In this case, Gaga IS the victim. In this case, Gaga IS the person Madonna decided to make a mockery of. Nowhere in her lil’ speech does she talk about being a victim or being sad, rather being strong and how she feels all of this controversy has made her a better person. If you actually listened to what she said, there’s no possible way to twist it into something even slightly negative because not one ounce of negativity spewed from her lips. The only people “taking the victim stance” are Madonna’s own fans who support Madonna and act like she’s not doing anything wrong. What you Madonna fans don’t get is that you guys are the ones making Gaga a victim. You can’t very well make someone a victim of your incessant hatred and then turn around and get upset when that person somehow acknowledges your bullshit.
It's just yet another case of Madonna fan hypocrisy. Madonna can steal from everyone and it's okay because all 3,000 times were just an "homage", but if Gaga dare wear her hair curly, she's copying Madonna.
Before this speech. Madonna's fans labeled Gaga as a coward for not responding, and now they're labeling her as a child for responding. You would think that Madonna's fans would be secure enough with her historic, legendary, and iconic career that they would not feel the need to even bother with Gaga or what she does, says, or wears. But I guess like Madonna, her own fans know that, as her fleeting music sales prove, she is becoming nothing more than a novelty touring act. Embrace it, don't be bitter.
"older members of the gay community could slap some sense into my peers"
ReplyDeleteThe older members of the gay community don't give a shit about who's copying who and who's doing what in the pop world. They're not teenagers anymore and they've moved on. They understand that nothing is original and that Madonna's entire career, much like Gaga's, has been based around pulling from pop culture iconography. There are very few older Madonna fans who sit online all day hating on Gaga because they're not threatened. They know Gaga's place and they know Madonna's place, and they know they're not comparable. They enjoy people for the fun music and not the petty bullshit. The only Madonna fans who engage in "stan wars", like our friend Opie here, are people whose own knowledge about Madonna does not pre-date the year 2000. That, or they completely ignore the fact that, just like they say about Gaga, Madonna is nothing but a "copy cat Xerox machine".
If you didn't watch the video, then why are you even commenting on it? You're blindly forming an opinion on something you have no clue about... Is that what you're used to doing?
ReplyDeleteThere's a large difference between criticizing and hating. What our friend Opie does is the latter and it's the latter to the fullest extent. As you can see how he/she obsesses over everything Gaga on this site and replies to every pro-Gaga comment with something to negate that person's views, it is quite clear that they are a hater.
ReplyDeleteAnd I disagree with saying that it "got" to Gaga. People say negative things about Gaga all day, every day and she's aware of it and she rarely responds. She knows this caused a huge ripple in her and Madonna's fanbase and she was just trying to clear the air. If people would actually listen to what Gaga said, they would understand that nothing she said was negative or had anything to do with wanting people to feel bad for her. But of course people are only going to watch the first 49 seconds and then ignorantly and blindly form an opinion because they would have nothing to use against her if they actually listened to the video. If Gaga's detractors spent as much time trying to get to know who she is as they do trying to bring her down, they would see just how silly the come off trying to bring down someone who does nothing but promote love, acceptance, self-esteem, and equality.
ReplyDeleteHe said older members of the gay community. NOT older Madonna fans. And please do share, where exactly do you get your info on the exact year I first heard of Madonna?
ReplyDeleteAlso you utterly fail to get the crux of my criticism. All in all it is clear you don't exactly read the comments you criticize.
And dear, I still say, if you leave that link up to your own dot com and then criticize others for the very same things anybody can see you do. And worse, are actually way more guilty of than the one you criticize...you very much look as foolish as you are. :)
ReplyDeleteDude that LovingAnthony I referred to was you. I read that speech on YOUR . com. Where I also read your hating on Nicki and on Marina and the Diamonds and several others and where I also read you are so obsessed with Gaga you spent most of your time on the internet trolling for people leaving negative comments on her and posting as much as over a 1000 notes in the month of May alone.
ReplyDeleteAgain dear LovingAnthony, I read the speech on YOUR dot com dedicated to Gaga filled with thousands of notes on her and hateful notes on her competition and other artists you don't like and then just can't leave be but have to be hateful about and where you confess to actually spending your day with little else. Btw still waiting for that proof of YOUR musical prowess validating your opinion over mine? Let me know when you post it here or on your site or on any of the dozens of sites you engage in calling every Gaga critic a "Madonna fan" and "hater" okay? :).
ReplyDeleteAnd she damn well does sound like a victim in her little speech. Just as much as she does in those first 49 seconds begging to be "loved" by her teenage mentality fans. And in her lyrics. This woman always starts everything from the victim position. THAT is "playing the victim card"
LOL Except that the argument hardly started just when Madonna started her latest tour.
ReplyDeleteIt started when Gaga decided to be as derivative as she is. When she realized her actual musical talent would never suffice to garner the kind of fame she craved and decided to take a business approach and use the career of a previous pop queen as blueprint without any real authenticity to redeem that choice. And did it in such an obvious manner, everybody in the world but Gaga Stans can see it.
Sorry dude! I believe everyone has right to express his opinion. I'm not a teenager to gaze upon a pop star with open mouth and hard-on. I can debate on many topics with almost anybody but one thing I can't stand - fanaticism. Fanatics have such unpleasant manner - they are not listening. They're usually deaf and blind, moreover they don't give a shit what you say to them. But probably the most dreadful thing is they call you "a hater" if you dare not to accept their point of view as your own.
ReplyDeleteAnd Anthony, you do put in a grand effort but when all is said and done ( and with "all" I mean your false claims regarding the motives, knowledge and life of those criticizing Gaga), the unfortunate main problem you have with your defense attempts is the fact that the ONLY argument you can come up with is the fact that Gaga can't be criticized for stealing since she stole from another thief.
ReplyDeleteAn utter failure as counter argument.
I dislike how you suggest it is actually something "dangerous" to her career to do but fact is...it is not at all. ( which is just one of the issues I have...the fact that she plays along with that idea ). The opposite in fact. It has been extremely advantageous for her to woo the gay community.
ReplyDeleteWonderful that you as an individual are not one of the people I am referring to. Consider yourself as not one of those I was addressing.
However, my point was that there are plenty of people who ARE stepping up and actually members of the LGBT community. The trouble is that mass media is not giving those people the same attention and as a result a lot of young gays don't either. Because they allow themselves to be played by that mass media. AND by Gaga.
Now I prefer to be represented by someone for whom the issue is an reality and always will be, over someone taking on the issue for career purposes. And like I said...I simply wish I could knock some, as I see it "sense" into the heads of the younger generation. ;)
I hold this view because I am seeing this as part of what I believe is the bigger picture, the reason mass media prefers to focus attention on a career popstar "bisexual" over the "real thing" so to speak but that would take way too much and too long explaining for a blog such as this. :)
i do not understand how anyone can take madonna's side on this and bash gaga because "shes playing the victim"
ReplyDeleteshe is not playing the victim - she is standing up for herself but trying not to make fun or step on anyone's feelings
gaga can never win can she?
and madonna is being a hypocrite by claiming gaga stole from her - but she forgets to mention that she borrowed from so many in her day and that she didnt invent performance art - a lot of her imagery was done before her
so no madonna is in no position to say someone is borrowing from her
are you kidding?
ReplyDeletethe same could be said about madonna?
the only headlines shes making today is for starting this fued with gaga and flashing her nipples in her tour
madonna is the queen of controversy - her image is more impressive than her voice
atleast gaga can back up her craziness with talent
and madonna herself was derivative
its stupid to say that someone who is not gay shouldnt speak out on behalf of the gay community
ReplyDeletethe problem with some people in the gay community is that when someone who is not gay comes out and speaks out on behalf of gay rights - people in the gay community immediately question their motives
this isnt fair because gaga has proved time and time again how loyal she is to the LGBT community
the reason why i believe gaga is the only one to be able to rival madonna
ReplyDeleteis because look at all the conversation their feud has incited
madonna fans are threatened by gaga - if they werent then there wouldnt even be any need to mention gaga's name in the same sentence as madonna's
i say instead of this stupid game of SHADE
we have the two take of their crazy couture outfits and stand in front of a microphone stand and let us see who wins
although madonna is a capable singer, gaga would annihilate madonna
she gets kinda breathy after the dance routine before the piano section
ReplyDeletebottom line is
ReplyDeletethis whole feud shouldnt have even started
madonna is a legend and doesnt need to be taking digs at someone who has only been famous for 4 years
if she was the queen - she wouldnt be threatened by a rookie
Honestly, with the times we are living in now it IS "dangerous" a person has more to lose than they do to gain when it comes to supporting gay rights and being blatantly verbal (with regards to the music industry). It can clearly be seen on an international scale and even more so in the US. While much progress has been made we[the U.S] still have a long way to go, also before Gaga was main stream she performed in gay clubs and was somewhat of a prominent figure (entertainment wise) as well as overseas which honestly were the beginnings of her popularity, the fact that she has chosen not to forget her "original fans" and the ones that supported her from the start shows her commitment to the gay community. I don't believe she panders to us ( not saying you said it but I've heard it numerous times from others) due to the fact that she could have been way more successful by not being so outspoken and instead ride the fence like most people in the public eye do, ESPECIALLY with regards to the music industry.
ReplyDeleteActually this debate becomes more and more ridiculous. What is this fuss all about? If Madonna found strong similarities between "Express Yourself" and "Born This Way", she should sue Gaga and whole story should end up in the court. Fair enough? If Gaga felt defamed by Madonna, she should take similar action.
ReplyDeleteThey released albums which are not bestsellers. Their singles won moderate popularity. Expectations were greater obviously. I suppose they had been surprised by unexpected Adele's success. Whole Madonna vs. Gaga issue seems to be desperate efforts to maintain publicity and position on the market, to keep albums and singles selling. They make music generally for roughly the same audience and virtually they have very similar fanbase. Whatever Madonna said about derivative and reductive Gaga's work it has nothing to do with music. Whatever Gaga said about being good human being it has nothing to do with ethics. If you step aside you will definitely notice we are witnessing ruthless fight for market position.
I'm not going to take anyone's side. You can discuss whole issue on music basis, on ethical basis... whatever. But you're tend to miss economic basis, which in my opinion is most important. I'd say it's like arguing who is better - Exxon or BP - from ethical point of view. Pointless.
what?
ReplyDeletei agree adele is ruling music right now
but born this way sold more than a million copies in its first week
and madonna is selling out stadiums and gaga is too
but this whole thing shouldnt have even erupted
"Born This Way" was available to download in US in its first week for $0.99. Am I right? Or is it just another bullshit I read in NME?
ReplyDeleteReally? Which pop queen's career did Madonna use as blueprint exactly? Please share the pop queen Madonna imitated the themes from? Which pop queen was using the same kind of antics to play the media and using female empowerment, sexual liberation and issues with Roman Catholicism in her work?
ReplyDeletee as it is, gaga does have more musical talent than Madonna has. And nope, stealing from a thief doesn't make one less a thief.
Yeah, that WOULD be stupid. Lucky for me that was not what I said. What I said went to people speaking for a community AS IF one of a community when in fact they are not.
ReplyDeleteWhat I say is that as a gay person I would like to see the most famous person speaking for my community to be an actual gay person, and as a feminist,when the press is looking for someone to speak on the subject of women's rights and issues I would prefer that to be a woman and not say....Adam Lambert
Yes, you ARE a Gaga fan so it figures you don't understand the issue. But again, you just admitted Gaga stole from Madonna. So why are you protesting when someone else points that out? Maybe if a Madonna fan came on here and claimed Gaga imitated Madonna but Madonna was an all original, you might have an argument there but as it stands, claiming if you steal from a thief, others ( and the victim of your thieving) can't call you a thief is NOT an argument. It is only an admittance coupled to a very questionable ethics.
ReplyDeleteAnd if all you care about is Gaga winning...yes, Gaga is the better singer and yes she is also the bigger thief. She wins! :)
And that is where we disagree. The way we read her relationship to the gay community.
ReplyDeleteI believe she used the gay community to get into mainstream.( but I agree it is nice she didn't forget about the community which helped her get there)
And I absolutely disagree in today's world of pop music one takes any kind of risk being pro gay. In other careers, yes, it would be a risk. But not in pop music. It hasn't been for decades. It is in fact one of the segments of that blueprint of Madonna's career.
As far as I know, Gaga has not sold out any stadiums, they were all smaller venues. And yes, Gaga sold over a million copies of BTW in it's first week, but that's only because she basically sold the album for 2 cents and a Blow Job.
ReplyDeleteI agree! The pop industry is more gay friendly than most other genres! However with the fact that most teenagers ARE NOT the ones voting and the country as a whole still is not in favor of equality. The number of people that Gaga detracts by being so outspoken would otherwise heighten her popularity much like her contemporaries.
ReplyDeleteBut with regards to what you said about her fans being younger absolutely! I feel that she is almost raising a generation [younger gays] and as they become older it will be interesting to see how they progress.
-When you say used the gay community though do you mean it in negative manner?
-And would you say that Madonna's demographic when she first started was the same as Gaga's is now?
Also I'd like to say, I really find conversations such as these beneficial, I also find it a shame that some people (frequently one's my age) don't like to look to the past and analyze history before defending their position on an issue.
I'm not one to ever say an artist is truly original due to the fact that many if not all ideas within the pop music genre have been used before, but what i've come to realize about artists is that a true one would be able to reinvent an idea to such extremes that it is unrecognizable. Madonna is known as the master of reinvention whereas even blatantly taking a concept is unrecognizable at first glance due to how different it appears to be. People say that her image all throughout her career looks exactly like Marilyn Monroe. Does Madonnas entire discography and image look anything like Monroes? No it doesn't. She makes several allusions and dedications to the late actresses popular image. However Gaga's imagery and visuals are so conceptually similar to Madonna's that even at first glance it is like a blatant "Madonna did this before in almost the exact same way". Gaga has done enough stunts to where her ENTIRE career doesn't resemble Madonna's but when one compares the two there are so many similarities it is aggravating. And this is what the Little Monster Stands fail to see.
ReplyDeleteWhether they vote or not is besides the point, the point is they are the ones buying Gaga's records. Are you claiming if it wasn't for her being outspoken about gay rights, loads of older Americans WOULD buy the kind of music Gaga produces? That the "danger" she suffered is a significant loss of sales to older Americans?
ReplyDeleteOr are you trying to claim Gaga has to fear older Americans in a non economic manner and that's why it is "dangerous" for her to be outspoken?
- I meant "used" as in she knew full well that when it comes to dance music, garnering the gay community market can start a successful career. I believe she didn't accidentally focus on gay clubs early on. I also believe it wasn't because she is a member of the gay community so yeah...she "used".Of course, that community was in no way forced to buy her albums. I would say she was business savvy in doing so. And yes, I consider a business savvy approach like that a negative. But that is independent on which community is being "used".
I would say Madonna's demographic of course was teenagers as well. Initially certainly. But the thing is where as I believe Madonna is as business savvy as Gaga( hence this whole business from both which lead to the above and previous blog entries) , I don't believe she was in quite the same manner. Because she didn't have that blueprint Gaga had ..thanks to Madonna having preceded her.
And I don't know about beneficial but I do know I am enjoying the conversation about this subject with you a hell of a lot more than with some (Gaga) fans. ;)
Yes, I have so far also failed to get that very point through to them. :(
ReplyDeleteIt is, it seems to me, the difference between "being inspired by" and "being derivative off"
ok i understand where you are coming from
ReplyDeletebut gaga has said she is bisexual - but we cannot confirm or deny this for sure
we dont know who she is attracted to
she has stated she has had sex with women before and she has sex with men
there are even rumours she sleeps with her make up artist tara
so i don't think she is pretending
what i have a problem with is
ReplyDeletepeople seem to label what gaga has done as "stealing" but when madonna borrowed imagery and even other people's music its considered "being inspired"
and honestly the only similarities i have seen between lady gaga are some outfits that look somewhat similar to somethings madonna has worn - and the chord structure of express yourself and born this way
oh and by the way express yourself by madonna borrows heavily from the song "respect yourself" by the staples singers
so what i cannot understand is why its okay for madonna to borrow and "be inspired" by others but when gaga does it - its a crime ...
yes
ReplyDeleteamazon made a special offer to sell it for 99 cents
but only about i think 345 thousand were bought for that price so she still sold 600+thousand copies of born this way in its first week at regular price
those numbers are unheard of today (besides adele)
actually gaga sold out bangkok 50thousand+ people
ReplyDeleteand she sold out the jakarta date but it was cancelled because the permit wasn't given because of threats by an extremist group who threatened to invade the show and force her off stage
she also sold out olympic stadium in south korea
sold out twickenham stadium in london
and the charles erhmann stadium in Nice, France
Disagree- Gaga's visual medium takes a lot from Madonna (who was the pioneer) but conceptually she is her own artist. The biggest conceptual differences lies within how Gaga embraces vulnerability in her work: see her self-directed "Marry the Night" video, relationship with her fans, talking during her shows, piano performances, etc. Another huge difference is within Gaga's use of the internet/exploration and decay of celebrity fame in the digital age. She is also different in her approach to sex. While Madonna was always hypersexual, Gaga complicates her role as a sex symbol by adding either rough or "repulsive" imagery to the glamour, something Madonna rarely did. Both were raised Catholic, so there is bound to be similarity to their work there- but Gaga also dabbles in a more philosophical/institutionalized depiction of religion: if you look at the BTW video intro or her latest tour.
ReplyDeleteEither way she's still reductive and a thief and her fame is declining. Check your facts hun, there was an estimated 450,000+ copies sold through Amazon. Had it not been for Amazon, She wouldn't have been certified double platinum in the United States. If I'm not mistaken Lil watned pushed 900,000+ copies of his album The Carter 4 and Drake also pushed roughly 600,000 copies of Take Care within his first week (and these were both done w/o some gimmicky sales tactic). Since then their albums sales have stabilized (just like Gaga's), and they have all sold relatively typical numbers overall. Also, let's not forget Taylor swift's debut with Speak Now, which also sold over a million copies in it's debut week. Gaga is not the only one pushing big units in her debut week, she's just the only one using cheap tactics to do so.
ReplyDeleteGood for you if you believe this. I don't.
ReplyDeleteYes. like I said..some people just absolutely do not get the difference between inspired by and derivative off. You very clearly are one of those people.
ReplyDeleteIf you really don't see more similarities than that , I can but draw one conclusion.
Yes. like I said..some people just absolutely do not get the difference between inspired by and derivative off. You very clearly are one of those people.
ReplyDeleteIf you really don't see more similarities than that ,you simply are refusing to or are not very knowledgeable.
But I suspect it is the former and that is why you are now backing off. Because you KNOW you cannot name such a pop star as I asked you to name.
"conceptually" is exactly where there is LITTLE difference. And are you sure you don't want to claim their age difference as a "major conceptual difference" as well? ;D
ReplyDeleteBut I give you that "vulnerability". Or as some of us call it...that victim role. THAT is a major difference. It is also what makes all the talk about female empowerment etc which she stole from Madonna such a crock in her case. There is no "empowerment" in thinking from a victim role always. As she does again in her reaction above. It is also the only thing authentic about her and because of it's not jiving with Madonna's concepts a major give away of the fact that she simple is using Madonna's career as a blue print rather than an inspiration.
And I don't know who taught you this nonsense about "exploration of internet" but that is hardly a Gaga thing. It has in fact been of way more importance in the careers of Justin Bieber and The Civil Wars than Gaga.
Bieber (and Rhianna ) btw are both acts clearly also disproving your claim of a "decay of celebrity fame". Which is such a load of BS because we are in fact living during the heights of "celebrity fame". Almost every one of the biggest celebrities are famous for nothing or little more than being famous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x5y5rjRF4I&feature=plcp
Your teacher filled your head with a lot of stuff you should THINK about instead of blindly accepting.
Uh - to be a "bigger theif" wouldn't Gaga have to be sued numerrous times for copyright infringement like Madge? In fact - the song "Frozen" can't be played in Belgium...because Madge was so "inspired" by anothers work that she stole it: http://www.aishamusic.com/lawsuit_many_artists_madonna_stole_from.htm
ReplyDeleteThe song "Frozen" can't be played in Belgium...because Madge was so "inspired" by anothers work that overly "referenced" it. Not to mention everything else she lifted from NUMEROUS other artists:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.aishamusic.com/laws...
She sold out Twickenham Stadium in less than a minute. Methinks you are very mistaken...
ReplyDeletetbh its all for money... Madonna started speaking about lady gaga more as her album came out and i like lady gaga ..no,no in fact i love lady gaga but that does not make me a deranged fan. when i was 13/14 i got 4 minutes by Madonna and though it was a fairly decent song but i have never once listened to any of her other music as its not relevant to me what so ever . lady gaga's career is now and Madonna's began 80's i think (im not sure and tbh don't care if its 80s 70s 60s or 1856) but she was relevant to people back then and shes starting up again(good for her although shes getting on and things are getting crinkled as will with lady gaga). when i was about 16 and in love with gaga i thought la roux,jessie j,eva simons were all copying her but i was stupid and loyal and i no longer think this as i appreciate each artist in there own slot and its just sad to see all this fighting because its between the artists not the fans yet people are getting far to involved ...........if you like Madonna go listen to hung up and stick a leotard on and if you like lady gaga go buy government hooker and stick some leather on but for the sake of the music don't bitch about whos more authentic
ReplyDeletep.s. diva if you see this, your blog is perfection and i check it everyday xoxo:)
Welllll, if the biggest female pop star today sounds /thinks from a victim position and lots of young people think that is being "empowered"....clearly Madonna's message is as relevant today as it was in the 80-ies. Today's teenagers don't quite seem to be ready for it yet though.;)
ReplyDeleteAnd not for nothing but if you really think during which decade what music/artist was the biggest deal or shocker or singer or whatever...I personally don't think your opinion is very valid within any discussion of the subject as history and it's course is a major factor in it.
I'd love to hear the "inspiration" behind frozen! That link doesn't work, though
ReplyDeletegood for you but i don't think your opinion is valid either because its your opinion not mine, therefore i don't register its credibility.. and if the queen Madonna(pathetic title considering her vocal ability) thinks from a spiteful position then its not much better ....a negative queen or a "victim" for a queen...id much rather a Mariah for a queen but hey im just a victimised lady gaga fan
ReplyDeletethe strings are sampled from a Belgium composition if I remember correctly.
ReplyDeleteYeah, you sure sound like one with all that passive aggression. ;D
ReplyDeleteYour argument sucks btw. I of course meant( and specifically said so) that if you disregard history and historical fact, your opinion on historical subjects is not valid since you not only lack factual knowledge but actually refuse to accept such facts as relevant.
But ya know, if you think knowledge and facts on a subject have no relevance as to the validity of the opinion uttered. Good for you. I suggest you get yourself into an American Uni. An educational system very much supporting your view . ;D
HAD you any historical knowledge you would for instance know that "spiteful" has been the attribute of many a real Queen. It's absolutely a royal quality.
Which kind of Queen you prefer..that's your prerogative but it does reflect on you obviously.
By replying to my comment you of course DID register my opinion as credible.
And please don't put words in my mouth.
i dont see anything in my last comment ware im denying any facts and assuming i need to enrol in some sort of educational system wither it good or bad seems to echo this apparent "shade" that's going around . by saying i don't care when Madonna carer started i was merely saying don't correct me because i could just write the 80s but that may be wrong and i didn't want some smidy comment on the real date in witch her career began. i acknowledged your opinion yes but i don't not acknowledged its trustworthiness or its creditability as you stand on a opposite side of the fence (as i do) even though claiming to not care for either artist and i whole Hartley agree with you on there being far superior artists out there
ReplyDeleteand yes queen of pop is nothing to do with vocal ability but i was saying music should be anchored by greater vocal ranges and supported by popularity not vice versa
and btw playing the victim was common in Mary queen if Scots and Marie Antoinette especially when there husbands died ... wouldn't you if your head was going to be chapped off ? haha
this conversation is a tiny speck in the grand scheme of things considering this must have happened back in the 80s and back in the 50s and its not even about the two singers now really so i feel its rather pointless. lady gaga is a small part of my music library and i don't quite feel she is worth conversing at this length over.
im sure gaga will appear alot more on this blog and with it hardcore fans to argue with but im not one and id rather just agree to disagree but that probably wont happen
Oh we can definitely agree to disagree on just about every point you raised there. :)
ReplyDeleteThe most vehemently I'd say I disagree with your general statement regarding singing. But claiming credibility of a opinion is based on whether one agrees or not is also a doozy.
But since I DO like to get the facts and get them correct.. you posted you didn't know and didn't care. Considering the subject I would think it is both relevant to know and to care. Other wise you not only can't form a valid opinion but also why even jump in the conversation.
But I gather English is not your original language ( or your strength) and this may in part be a communication issue between us?
So yeah. lets agree to disagree...vehemently. :)
My personal opinion on this whole furore is that of bewilderment. I just cannot wrap my head around why someone as successful and iconic as Madonna would play mind games with someone who practically worships her.
ReplyDeleteDon't get me wrong she is probably more than pissed that Gags 'Born this way' borrows heavily from 'Express yourself' but with a career like Madonna's it should come as an insignificance especially considering as others have said Madonna had done her share of 'borrowing' ideas, maybe not so obviously but she has never the less.
Clearly its more a publicity thing and nobody knows how to play the media for their own gain than Madonna and that has been one of her biggest weapons but this is just sad to be honest...
it doesnt have to be a pop star
ReplyDeletemadonna borrowed imagery and ideas from other people period - this means she isnt completely original
so for madonna and her fans to act like she is the inventor of pop culture and pop music is absurd
i acknowledge gaga borrows from madonna
but madonna used other peoples ideas TOO
you are acting like everything gaga has done was taken from madonna
you are saying that gaga's career was derived from madonna's
but that even though madonna borrowed from countless people she was "inspired" by them - and that is is totally fine because she didnt borrow from a pop star
thats so unfair
this world is still incredible homophobic
ReplyDeletesure in america its slowly getting better - but in some places in the world homosexuality is even illegal!
look at what happened in jakarta where the muslim extremists shut out gaga and threatened to kill her because of her vocal support for homosexuality
a lot of the asian countries she toured were not welcoming because they think she is "poisoning the youth's morality by spreading homosexuality"
she wasnt the one who chose to sell it for 99cents
ReplyDeleteamazon chose to sell it for that price
and they still paid gaga and her label the difference for the albums sold for 99cents
and i did not say she was the only who who sold well
and i love how you cant say anything about the stadiums argument - you claimed she wasnt selling out stadiums and you were wrong - you should check your facts as well
yes the general public has lost interest but her fame isnt declining shes still the most followed on twitter with 25.7 million followers
ReplyDeletebravo agree completely
ReplyDeletemadonna is a legend and she shouldnt be talking crap about a rookie
its funny how some people still call what gaga does as "stealing" but when madonna is mentioned its "being inspired"
she isnt the bigger thief
ReplyDeletegaga has been accused of copying grace jones and madonna and thats about it
madonna has a whole laundry list of people that have claimed she copied them
Seriously? You are still on about that. Maybe if we put it in terms you hopefully WILL understand..Inspired by..some of it is someone else"s...MOST of it is you. Derivative...most of it is someone else's... a tiny bit is you.
ReplyDeleteOf course it is a publicity thing from both.:)
ReplyDeleteI think you misunderstand the accusation Stuey...the resemblance between the two songs is just the best single ( as in opposite to plural) example, the issue is that Gaga basically borrows everything from Madonna's career. She is using Madonna's fave subjects, her use of media and shock fashion, the gay crowd...just everything. It's like she looked at Madonna entire career, made a bleuprint and decided to follow that in order to become famous.
It's really obvious in how much they resemble each other..Now try to come up with someone who packed all components just as together in one package prior to Madonna the way Gaga does after Madonna.
Again, nobody claims Madonna is "completely original"
ReplyDeleteAnd No, it's not that Gaga used a little of Madonna and a little of someone else and a little of a third person...added a LOT of her own( for instance because of what she took and from where) and ended up accidentally very similar to Madonna.
You keep mentioning Monroe? The only thing Madonna took from Monroe was a temporary haircut and a movie scene...a movie scene Monroe merely acted in. It was written by someone else and had little else to do with Monroe. That scene was used because it appears Monroe has the same attitude the song "Material girl" describes but actually in the movie's story...Monroe does not have that attitude but is suspected to have it.THAT is called being inspired by.
You might want to look into Monroe's biography and old videos of interviews and you'd realize...there is actually no comparison between Monroe and Madonna other than that haircut, nor between the careers of those two.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with anything as Gaga doesn't live in Indonesia and doesn't have to go there. What is brave is Indonesian gays speaking about gay rights or just being out.
ReplyDeleteNot an American doing so about American gay rights and then traveling to Jakarta going from airport to 5 star hotel to venue in a limo surrounded by security.
But it sure helps if you are following the blueprint of Madonna's career to try and have a concert in one of the most violent muslim countries in the world. THAT will , much like it did when it happened to Madonna "co-incidentally", make sure your name and tour are mentioned for free in every newspaper in every country in the world.As we well know because of...Madonna.
You are just full of contradictions...You claim her outspokenness cost her while in the same thread mentioning how successful she is and even in one sentence you managed to claim yeah she is less successful but look how successful she is. ROFL Such a shame though hitting a little button on Twitter at some point, is hardly the same as spending hard cash on an album or ticket . ;)
ReplyDeleteNo worries, that link is just another Gaga Stan compiling a list of court cases against Madonna but not mentioning what the decision ended up being and some farfetched similarities between photograph poses.
ReplyDeleteI think it's a good thing that thanks to the modern music industry's habit of making albums with non musicians really, the internet and such sites as youtube, the amount of "sampling" and "borrowing" going on makes it impossible to keep track of copyright infringements. All an "artist" has to worry about these days is not "borrowing" from one of the biggest acts signed by such corporations as Sony and they can "borrow" as much as they want. ;D
ReplyDeleteyes Gaga stole 90% of her act/career from only one artist..Madonna 50 % from her act/career from dozens of others.. ;D
ReplyDeleteGaga wins because her act contains way less authenticity than Madonna's. That is why I call Gaga the bigger thief.
You are just full of contradictions...You claim her outspokenness cost her while in the same thread mentioning how successful she is and even in one sentence you managed to claim yeah she is less successful but look how successful she is. ROFL Such a shame though hitting a little button on Twitter at some point, is hardly the same as spending hard cash on an album or ticket . ;)
ReplyDeleteI agree about her taking an extreme amount from Madonna and using it, but its not exclusive to just her its jacko, Cher infact its anyone who has used (media shock tactics) as well as catchy pop hooks and morphs them into her own thing, sometimes its like the subject and just too transparent!
ReplyDeleteAs for the last part there are others they just dont hit the limelight quite like Gaga has, remember all the teeny boppers after Britney hit the scene *cough Mandy Moore cough* lol
I meant Cher in regards to the outlandish costumes (the ones she wore way before Madonna was ever on the scene) and some of the Choreo from Jacko was taken and used directly in 'Bad Romance' (the horrid claw move eugh lol)
ReplyDeleteBut yes she is most defo ripping the ass outta Madonna's career, I think now that people are noticing more and more and unless Gaga can bring something fresh with the new album she is currently working on unfortunately for her the accusations will continue and probably damage her more than anything. I do like Gaga, more for the debut stuff, it seemed that after that and in the BTW era that the echoing of her 'idols' career really took on a life of its own.
I try to be optimistic but at the same time I totally get your point, and I think it will all blow up in her face if she (Gaga) cannot bring a fresh approach to her career, and it wont be pretty, hell I wouldnt wanna piss off Madonna thats for sure lol
ReplyDeleteYeh you pretty much summed it up, if she doesn't spin it up she gonna fall, and from her own pedestal she has placed herself on!
ReplyDeleteI will wait to hear a new song then I will be quicker to judge and have an idea but I fear you are again right and longevity is at stake for her....kinda grates as she does have potential too!
everything from madonna's career?
ReplyDeleteokay so you are implying madonna created shock fashion and she was the first ever to manipulate the media to her own advantage and that madonna is the only one entitled to have a gay following?
up until born this way was released
gaga wasnt being accused of "copying" madonna - there were people still saying it but it wasnt as widespread
and then all of a sudden now that one of gaga's song uses the same chord progression as one of madonna's - she has copied madonna's entire career
what i find funny is that madonna fans talk about her like she was the first ever to do this -
yes i completely agree she was revolutionary - but it was done even before her
many people claimed madonna stole from them
- some even claim she stole vogue (the dance move) from the underground gay club scene
- many people have claimed that madonna stole music from them
- even that stupid cone bra people are complaining about was done before madonna and Gaultier used it
what i am saying is that gaga shouldnt be bashed for "copying" madonna because madonna wasnt the first to do it
and lastly why cant madonna fans just leave gaga alone?
why is there this constant argument about whos copying who?
madonna has had her time - give gaga a chance
i agree with you about this
ReplyDeletei dont think its fair to say that
because gaga will never be able to sell more than 200 million albums - because - lets face it a lot of music today is downloaded illegally - anyone who has a computer or any internet access can get albums for free with the click of a mouse
and also out of any of gaga's competitors
she is the one that comes closest to madonna - in terms of drive and ambition
and shes had the most meteoric rise of any pop star in recent memory not only in terms of sale but also in cultural impact
but i agree with you guys she needs to bring something fresher to the table
Born this way didnt sell as much as her last album
i cant name an artist that madonna "used as a blue print for her whole career" but there are a lot of artists that claim she stole from them and madonna was "inspired" by a lot of people - and gaga is inspired by a lot of people too not just madonna
ReplyDeleteand honestly aside from the whole " gaga copied express yourself " and a few similar outfits the two wore
what else has gaga done to deserve the accusation that she stole madonna's entire career?
okay i take it back the general public's interest in her has decreased but her fanbase is still strong
ReplyDeleteand being the most followed on twitter is still a huge deal
and her album still sold well and she just grossed 43million with the asian leg of her tour
its hard to explain
her choice to be vocal has hurt her because people get turned off casual listeners - the general public (non fans) stay away from her because of her polarizing stance
but at the same time her fan base is still strong and still supporting her through and through
what im trying to say is that shes still very famous
but she would be even more famous if she was just churning out catchy pop tunes without a polarizing message
ugh idk what im saying anymore
this argument has gone on too long
well you saying gaga stealing "90%" of madonna's career isnt factual either
ReplyDeletemadonna's has had lawsuits filed against her
gaga hasnt
just like those were claims
the argument that gaga stole madonna's career is also just a claim
Whether that is fair to say or not is beside the point as it is not something I actually said.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think Bieber has had as much of a meteoric rise and cultural impact as Gaga has. Merely my opinion but I doubt either will be remembered much unless they come up with actual MUSIC which can stand the test of time. Their cultural impact may seem big right now but I fear historically will be minimal. Which is what I WAS referring to. Not sales numbers.
LOL The fact that this comment got downvoted sure attest to something..and I fear not something reflecting positively on Gaga fans.
ReplyDeleteLOL I wonder which Gaga Stans Down voted this comment.
ReplyDeleteI said and I quote "As far as I KNOW, she has not sold out any stadiums". I can't refute your statement since it is fact, what more is there to say? and PLEASE! Gaga hyped the album up to no end calling it the "Greatest Album of the Decade", so I don't believe for one second that she wasn't a part of that Amazon gimmick. Okay Amazon payed her the difference, so what? The point is, she would not have pushed those numbers without Amazon.
ReplyDeleteNo, you didn't say that she was the only one that sold well, and I didn't say you said that either. You said and I quote "those numbers are unheard of today". I responded to that by showing you that those numbers are not unheard of today, and that several artists have achieved similar numbers within their first week without using gimmicky tactics, and that's just looking at the U.S music market.
I love how you keep returning to the fact that she sold out Stadiums to prove just how "Relevant" and "Popular" your fave is. And please, millions of her followers on twitter are spam accounts. Where were all those millions of followers when BTW was released? because they obviously weren't at the record stores.
You and I simply hold different viewpoints on what art constitutes. You had no right to call me "blindly accepting" or imply I don't think for myself when all I do is just share my personal opinion. I'm trying to facilitate a thought-provoking convo here, and if that is something you want (and if you wish to challenge me properly), you need to respond with thoughtful questions- not snappy retorts. Until then, you will only continue to misunderstand me.
ReplyDeleteWhat the hell is a Gaga Stan - and why are you obsessed with them exactly? However - you're wrong it was a musical composition snafu - not artisitc (even though Madge has been sued for that as well numerous times). And actually - that website was around WAY before Gaga. Gee - wrong twice in one post. Telling....
ReplyDeletehttp://www.aishamusic.com/lawsuit_many_artists_madonna_stole_from.htm
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect - for someone who professes to not be a "hater" - you sure do seem to trash talk quite a bit, don't ya? 20+ posts on one thread - really?
ReplyDeletePS: I know all the baggage the "hater" term has, I used it for the sake of expediency.
Oho..How DARE you name Kate Bush in one breath with Gaga? ;D
ReplyDeleteThe reason I posted 20+ post is that some dimwits keep replying the same damn argument. Fortunately for me, mostly by basically agreeing. ;)
Don't get me wrong..I truly don't hate Gaga, or even the incredibly forgettable tunes she produces but I most certainly hate what she did and why. Music is important and meaningful to me, art is important and meaningful to me...to use it in such a callous way just to achieve something as meaningless as the kind of fame she wants, I find an offensive act. And though I totally recognize her absolute right to her choices and the right of folks to love her and buy her albums and defend her...if I see them spouting nonsense...I will exercise my right of sharing my opinion. :)
Oho..How DARE you name Kate Bush in one breath with Gaga? Gaga is not fit to kiss the hem of Kate's garments... musically or generally artistically.;D
ReplyDeleteThe reason I posted 20+ post is that some dimwits keep replying the same damn argument. Fortunately for me, mostly by basically agreeing. ;)
Don't get me wrong..I truly don't hate Gaga, or even the incredibly forgettable tunes she produces but I most certainly hate what she did and why. Music is important and meaningful to me, art is important and meaningful to me...to use it in such a callous way just to achieve something as meaningless as the kind of fame she wants, I find an offensive act. And though I totally recognize her absolute right to her choices and the right of folks to love her and buy her albums and defend her...if I see them spouting nonsense...I will exercise my right of sharing my opinion. :)
Sorry, I was not educated in art reviewer's speak. Guess you will have to ignore my snappiness and concentrate on the actual arguments I most definitely posted.
ReplyDeleteI have btw every right to call you blindly accepting. Perhaps you should check out the universal declaration of human rights? ;)
If you were trying to facilitate a thought provoking conversation...again, focus on replying to my arguments. And also maybe if you didn't sound like a text book but like a real person you might be able to change my mind on whether you are posting your view rather than what you were taught or read somewhere and decided to agree with/ believe in.
I do not misunderstand you, I am vehemently disagreeing with you.
Sorry, I was not educated in art reviewer's speak. Guess you will have to ignore my snappiness and concentrate on the actual arguments I most definitely posted.
ReplyDeleteI have btw every right to call you blindly accepting. Perhaps you should check out the universal declaration of human rights? ;)
If you were trying to facilitate a thought provoking conversation...again, focus on replying to my arguments. And also maybe if you didn't sound like a text book but like a real person you might be able to change my mind on whether you are posting your view rather than what you were taught or read somewhere and decided to agree with/ believe in.
I do not misunderstand you, I am vehemently disagreeing with you.
All in all Jamal is a whole more thought provoking than you are imo. He is also btw responding to my arguments and coming up with some pretty good counter arguments. And all in what are clearly HIS own words and thoughts.
Was it now? I guess than it is very convenient for Gaga Stans one of them discovered a Madonna anti fan old site. ;)
ReplyDeleteI confess I didn't investigate how long the site has existed as it suffers from those fatal flaws as to it's validity.
Have you actually read my 20+ comments or just counted them? Because I nowhere deny Madonna stole as well.
But that site , and I guess for even more years than I suspected, really does fail to mention how many and which of those law suits the claimant won and you have to admit comparing pictures with poses every photographer uses and one could in fact find of about every professionally photographed pop and/or movie and/or tv star can hardly be taken seriously.
A Stan is the kind of fan who is not capable of being in any way realistic about their favorite and spends a lot of time arguing so called haters with usually , due to their general irrationality on the subject, poor argumentation.
Did you notice I neither down voted nor argued your earlier posts? That's because you were not being a stan but quite factual and used counter arguments no rational person would or can argue. I'd say that could indicate a rational opinion being argued rather than just "hating" some artist irrationally ie being the opposite as it were of a Gaga Stan. Of course, whether that is true ...I am not really in the objective position to judge. LOL
Lol your opening argument there just about gave me a hernia laughing....nice...! But seriously stans will never get it, as I said before though they will if she continues with the ripping off, however though Gaga might just surprise us all and come out fresh! I honestly think that Monster is my fav song but yes, compare that to say Running up that Hill and it sounds like comparing lead to platinum....Kate wins!
ReplyDeleteHa ha ha it seemed the only fitting response to such a remark.
ReplyDeleteI am afraid you are right Stuey, Stans will not get it but they will move on to the next hip thing if she doesn't come up with fresher stuff.
Not just Running up that hill but every damn song of Kate's is vastly superior musically and in originality to anything Gaga produced so far.
Not to mention the fact that Kate was an all around original. Look at her vids, her stage show , her themes, her lyrics. I mean can you seriously imagine a Gaga ever coming up with an album like The Dreaming?
And Kate just by her actual work and the control she took over her career demonstrates what it means to actually be a strong independent woman by ya know...being one. And a song like "Room For The Life"
And speaking of "the gays" ...how about Kashka From Baghdad eh? ;)
And how about watching old movies and then write "There Goes A Tenner" or watch The Shining and then come up with "Get out Of My House"?The examples are numerous.
Now THAT is called "being inspired by"! :)
Wise words as always! It's just sad that some people are so closed minded....And I totally agree about Kate, myself and a colleague always have good chat about our love for her!! I just love the fact that as everything you said is true but she is also a real woman who is not only fearless but mysterious and intriguing even to this day, that's some feat...
ReplyDeleteTotally she is, that's because she couldn't care less about that fame nonsense but cares all the more about the quality of her work.
ReplyDeleteNot sure whether that is such a feat but it is definitely something I love about her. Same with Alison Krauss. She too keeps her private life and self well out of the spotlight. She will gladly talk music but that's about it.
That's a credible artist for you though, one that feels no need for the fame whoring or attention seeking of certain other stars (even if they do have a slight glimmer of talent). Worthy of more respect if you ask me.
ReplyDeleteCould not agree with you more. :)
ReplyDeleteAnd on top of all that..Kate was also a better dancer than a lot of those divas today.
But Alison it seems sucks big time as a dancer. ;)
Madonna and Lady Gaga
ReplyDeleteMadonna and Lady Gaga’s recent fight can technically be classified
as a family feud. Why? They are related! New England Historic
Genealogical Society specialist Chris Child reveals that the pop stars
are ninth cousins, once removed. “When I saw that Lady Gaga had French
Canadian ancestry, I thought there might be something there,” Child told
the Boston Globe. —Xfinity Entertainment Staff (Photos by Stephen Lovekin, Andrew H. Walker/Getty Images)
Im sure we are all related to some extent.
ReplyDeleteLOL Yes we are. To all life in fact.
ReplyDeleteCher's you ignorant fuck.
ReplyDeleteBaby you need a hobby. I can't at all the bullshit you have spewed here.
ReplyDeleteYou can call Gaga a copycat and a thief the day she loses a court case for stealing material that isn't her's, kinda like how Madonna lost to Ingrid Chavez.
Meanwhile remain commenting and being pressed at Gaga.
There really is nothing to say that hasn't already been said by Madonna's actions; that she's a desperate hypocrite.
ReplyDeleteHow are you going to try and call someone out on copying or ripping you off when you have made a career out of thievery and ripping others off? No honey sorry, you need to take your meds and sit down.
The songs are SIMILAR, but similarity does not constitute EXACTITUDE. And last I checked Gaga isn't the one with 11 lawsuits on counts of copyright infringement. So I suggest you put down your finger Magde before you have to bite it off yourself.
And if any Madonna f/stan wants to debate with me you are more than welcome. There hasn't been a Madonna admirer who has been able to defend her against me.
The irony of this all truly smh-worthy. As for Lady Gaga she remains un-bothered and her career continues to boom as she now sells out stadiums.
Oh sweety, you can call me a lot of things but "ignorant"? Well that just shows you, as all Gaga stans, lack argument as it is quite clear "ignorant" is what I am not.
ReplyDeleteexcept as to what the hell "Cher's " is referring to.
Thanks dear, now that I have your permission I surely will./s
ReplyDeleteBtw why would I get another hobby when this one of out arguing Gaga Stans on DivaDevotee is going so well?
Who are you kidding. Building a career on sex symbolism and shock value as well as catchy songs is what they have all done.
ReplyDeleteAnd to quote Cher "she does what I did, but she does it so much better." And I stand by my comment you are ignorant. Sitting here thinking you know anything about Gaga and claiming she is a copycat. You're a fool.
If you are unable to understand the difference between referencing and copying I suggest you hit the books again baby. Because you have much to catch up on.
Really, you talking about stale arguments when you have only the bandwagon argument to abase Gaga with, quite the irony. Like I said go hit the books and come up with your own argument.
Well, is that what you call repeating tired arguments? Hmm. Well I see standards aren't much in your book. Seems to fit as you stand here defending Madonna.
ReplyDeleteGood luck with that baby, now that I'm here. ;)
LOL Like I said, looks like you don't know all that much about Cher's career.
ReplyDeleteAlso looks like you never did read what my criticism is exactly.
But then again, reading doesn't seem to be a strength of yours anyway. I never used "stale" in combination with your poor excuses for "argument".
For a person obviously challenged in both reading and writing skills, you sure like that expression "hit the books" a lot.
Now if you don't want to read my comments , at least go over your above comment again and try real hard to find any actual argument amongst your many opinions there. :)
Man oh man, Gaga Stans! Really not the brightest bulbs. No wonder they are so attracted to the meaningless glitter of Gaga.
ROFL I am shaking in my boots doll, "now that you are here".
ReplyDeleteJust let me know...are you going to use just these two accounts or will you add more?
And are these two replies just a warm up for you then? Let me also know when you have come up with like...an actual argument.
Fyi criticizing Gaga is hardly the same as defending Madonna.
But of course , hilariously, you are not bright enough to realize that if you think it IS, that means you basically admit my criticism is well founded. ;)
"Meaningless glitter," very analogous to
ReplyDeleteyour type of arguments.
I have read your points and I didn't read anything new.
But I do like how MY arguments seemed to have flown over
your head. You ignored the fact that Gaga takes much more from other artists
(i.e. Dale Bozzio, David Bowie, and Grace Jones) than Madonna. And that between
Lady Gaga and Madonna, Gaga is the superior musician and artist.
I know Cher's career and I know Madonna's, quite
extensively. Similarities will always exist, and it is these similarities which
people like YOU use to try and accuse Lady Gaga of ripping off Madonna or
acquiring a "blueprint" from her to reach the stardom Gaga has
amassed. So I am simply using your flawed tactic of
noting similarities in artists' careers to “show” that Madonna
gathered her blueprint from Cher. These all-too-common similarities only fuel
subjective opinions, such as yours. All female pop artists are similar to
an extent; Cher, Donna Summer, Madonna, and Lady Gaga all share using sexuality
and shock value to gain attention and notoriety, and one came before the other.
Does that mean that the latter copied or obtained a “blueprint” from their predecessor?
No.
But like I said in another comment similarity does not
constitute EXACTITUDE. So these similarities between Gaga and Madonna prove
nothing more than what Gaga herself has admitted, that she is influenced by
Madonna. Just like how Madonna was influenced by Marilyn Monroe, Cher and Cindy
Lauper before her. Haha.
And very VERY hilarious that you say people will waste money
on people like Gaga instead of true artists. Hmm, because Madonna is a true
artist and Gaga isn't... Like I said ignorant you are and ignorant it appears
you shall remain.
P,S.
Don't argue with me about semantics; argue with me about
Gaga and Madonna. I never put ‘stale’ arguments in quotes, thus never implying
you called my argument stale explicitly in your original post. I used it
because you replied saying I was using the tired argument that because Madonna
stole it makes it ok that Gaga "stole" from her. I have never once
implied that. All I have ever meant with the two thieving comparisons was
that you can't accuse one artist (Lady Gaga) of stealing from another (Madonna)
when the latter has done it all her career and legitimately stolen work from
other artists. And let us drop the ad hominem arguments. As of now I am the
only one who is making arguments with substantiated claims, you are still angered
by my insult at your ignorance, which so far hasn’t been disproven. ;)
I love, just love, how you are questioning my
ReplyDeleteargument/debate skills when the only thing you have used as an argument is my
accounts or my “boastful statements.”
Tired arguments are possible and they exist, this argument
that Gaga has taken/stolen/borrowed from Madonna IS tired. Tired in many ways
because just as it is being used on Gaga it was used on Britney, on Christina,
and on Madonna. So yes this argument is tried.
As for this criticizing Gaga/defending Madonna or vice-versa,
critique of an opposition to an opinion is a form of argument, have you ever
hear of politics? Yeah… and you questioned by reading and writing skills. Haha.
I have not once argued whether your arguments were well founded
or not, I have argued so far that they are inaccurate and asinine. If that to
you entails being well founded or not, that is your opinion. Debate it with me
and we’ll see who ends up proving who right or wrong.
And like I stated in my last comment directed towards you,
let us drop the ad hominem. Because well, on personal insults you and I will
prove nothing. Also because insulting you brings me little to no joy compared
to seeing you squirm to avoid my legitimate arguments; DEFENDING Gaga (against
her thieving a “blueprint” from Madonna) by proving that Gaga has taken more
from other artists than Madonna and that Lady Gaga is the superior artist and musician
to Madonna.
Dude. claiming superior artistry is an opinion not an argument.
ReplyDeleteMadonna is the one who was inspired by Jones and Bowie, Gaga copied Madonna's inspiration.
That is what I mean by making a blueprint and following that. Gaga copied Madonna's sources of musical inspiration as well as her sources for her themes.
Indeed Cher's career, if you make the most general of generalizations you can think of might SOMEWHAT resemble Madonna's but Cher actually made her career with poppy tunes, a succesfull tv show and then developed her name into that of a serious actress. AFTER all that she developed her musical career into something sort of resembling Madonna's. However Cher was never obsessed with the same themes Madonna was and Gaga is now COPYING.
I think it's funny how you tried before and now try again to turn my argument around on me but unlike you, I do know the difference between inspired by and copying.
Inspired by means you take something of someone else and let your personality take it into something personal and individual. That is what Madonna did, That is what Gaga is lacking in.
You just assume because I note that Gaga blueprinted Madonna's complete career, that I am a Madonna fan. I am not. I just happen to be old enough to have seen Madonna's entire career and now Gaga's.
When I said spent money and time on actual ( not "true" ) artists, I most certainly was not referring to Madonna. Never spent a dime on her myself.
You most certainly Since you are the one starting with the Ad hominem attacks, you can hardly complain if I respond in kind.
As for "semantics" this is what I said " already going stale, Product "
This is what you literally posted in your reply "You talking about stale arguments"
I most certainly did not do this "called my argument stale explicitly". Like I said, you need to read more carefully.
I did say you only came up with two actual arguments at that point and one of those was indeed that I can't call Gaga a thief if Madonna is a thief too. That would only be true if I had ever stated Madonna never stole anything. She did! Just not entire career paths and worse..themes.
And you now use the same argument AGAIN.
And please look up the meaning of "explicitly", "substantiated" and "legitimately"
You cannot "steal legitimately".
I am not "angered" by your attempt to insult me by calling me ignorant. I know what the word means and I know I am not ignorant regarding the subject at hand.
I am therefor amused by an ignorant person who thinks Madonna copied Cher the way Gaga copied Madonna calling me thus. :)
But the way, you may also look up the word "stop". What with you first coming with the Ad hominem attack of calling me ignorant ..again, then suggesting we stop making such attacks and ending the whole comment with calling me ignorant yet again, you don't quite seem to grasp even that word. Ironic really, the way you keep using the same insult throughout a comment filled with displays of said quality.
Most of that comment being just plain nonsensical, I will just stick to your last statement and say that you might want to rephrase that "Gaga has taken more from other artists than Madonna" since I am pretty sure you did NOT intend to say that but rather the opposite ( beside the point as the number of thefts is).
ReplyDeleteAnd again, stating Gaga is a superior artist to Madonna is NOT an argument. It is an opinion you need to back up with arguments. That, in case you didn't get to that dictionary yet, is what "substantiate" means.
I will also add that I am getting a bit tired of all this scrolling down. Can we maybe stick to the exchange closest to the top?
“Dude. claiming superior artistry is an opinion not an argument.
ReplyDeleteMadonna is the one who was inspired by Jones and Bowie, Gaga copied Madonna's inspiration.
That is what I mean by making a blueprint and following that. Gaga copied Madonna's sources of musical inspiration as well as her sources for her themes.”
And you still think me calling your ignorant was farfetched. Seriously? Lady Gaga copied Madonna’s influences. Wow. Probably THE stupidest argument I have ever read.
Sorry to break it to you, but one person can influence many, because if what you say is true and this is the case Gaga is copying Britney, Katy Perry and Rihanna as well since all three of them came before her and listed Madonna as an influence. I can’t at this, I just can’t. What a truly dumb argument.
As for everything else in your statement, again semantics. You have nothing else to argue with me about and so you point out my spelling and usage of words. Nothing there to to the argument of whether Lady Gaga copied Madonna or not. Also you have no solid proof that Gaga fashioned herself a “blueprint” from Madonna’s career, like I said and like you keep ignoring SIMILARITIES do not constitute EXACTITUDE. If the only proff you have of this is that Lady Gaga’s career is similar to Madonna’s, well you keep arguing that and tell me how it goes.
My argument concerning Madonna and Gaga’s copying is not to justify one’s “thieving” ways by saying the other did the same. It is to make you understand that you cannot accuse one artist (in this case Lady Gaga) of stealing or copying when there is no hard evidence to suggest so (common chord progressions do not constitute copying or stealing), yet there has been abundant evidence to suggest that the other artist in question (Madonna) has stolen, legitimately STOLEN from other artists before her and during her time.
Everything else about your comment is not worth arguing as you do nothing to further this debate.
As for superior artistry, yes there is such a thing and It can be argued. Lady Gaga is by far a much more superior artist than Madonna in that she started her career writing her smash hits and is undeniably the better TRUE musical talent. She is a classically trained vocalist and musician, as well as an accomplished songwriter. She didn’t and doesn’t rely on others to hand her material like Madonna did at the beginning of her career, and she does not rely on hit-makers for her hits (RedOne is not an exception as before Gaga he was hardly even heard of and was working with d-list artists). A vocalist Madonna never was and a musical talented less. Madonna has always worked with pre-established talent and hit-makers.
And please if you reply let it be in response to one of my arguments not my syntax or diction. Thank you. :)
It’s called disgus.com, try it.
ReplyDeleteAs for the artistry there you go, musicianship or the focus of your profession’s choice is what helps greatly in determining a better artist. As you have said Gaga is an all-around better musician than Madonna, this more than greatly tilts the balance in Lady Gaga’s favor. Both Gaga and Madonna are great entertainers and performers on stage. But one, Gaga, truly shines for her ability to craft her own legacy while the other has always relied on other talent and people to project her vision.
As for your argument about this “blueprinting” mess, there is not much to argue with you about this. The only thing so far you have to back up that argument is that Lady Gaga has copied Madonna’s career by taking her influences and themes of work and using them to get where she is (no hard evidence, just assumptions). Pinpointing similarities in their careers does not prove that Lady Gaga has stolen or copied anything from Madonna, for the UMPTEENTH time. These similarities, and I’ll say this AGAIN, only prove what Gaga herself has said millions of times before: that she is influenced by Madonna.
This argument of yours that Lady Gaga has copied Madonna using nothing more than themes and similarities is beyond hilarious. If my argument in terms of their artistry seems like a joke to you, well your argument concerning Gaga’s stolen “blueprint” from Madonna and her copying of Madonna’s themes (themes which are universal) is the punchline. Haha.
I was sincerely expecting a fight out of you, but you have proven and done nothing other than repeating the same tired argument against Gaga and trying to back it up using some of THE stupidest premises I have ever, ever heard of. Hahaha!!
And in case you didn’t get it the 5th time I repeated it SIMILARITIES DO NOT CONSTITUTE EXACTITUDE. So you are going to have to use something else other than similarities and universal themes (such as sex and religion) to prove that Lady Gaga has COPIED anything from Madonna. So good luck with that. ;)
It’s called disgus com,
ReplyDeletetry it.
As for the artistry
there you go, musicianship or the focus of your profession’s choice is what
helps greatly in determining a better artist. As you have said Gaga is an
all-around better musician than Madonna, this more than greatly tilts the
balance in Lady Gaga’s favor. Both Gaga and Madonna are great entertainers and performers
on stage. But one, Gaga, truly shines for her ability to craft her own legacy
while the other has always relied on other talent and people to project her
vision.
As for your argument
about this “blueprinting” mess, there is not much to argue with you about this.
The only thing so far you have to back up that argument is that Lady Gaga has
copied Madonna’s career by taking her influences and themes of work and using
them to get where she is (no hard evidence, just assumptions). Pinpointing
similarities in their careers does not prove that Lady Gaga has stolen or
copied anything from Madonna, for the UMPTEENTH time. These similarities, and I’ll
say this AGAIN, only prove what Gaga herself has said millions of times before:
that she is influenced by Madonna.
This argument of
yours that Lady Gaga has copied Madonna using nothing more than themes and
similarities is beyond hilarious. If my argument in terms of their artistry
seems like a joke to you, well your argument concerning Gaga’s stolen “blueprint”
from Madonna and her copying of Madonna’s themes (themes which are universal)
is the punchline. Haha.
I was sincerely
expecting a fight out of you, but you have proven and done nothing other than
repeating the same tired argument against Gaga and trying to back it up using
some of THE stupidest premises I have ever, ever heard of. Hahaha!!
And in case you didn’t
get it the 5th time I repeated it SIMILARITIES DO NOT CONSTITUTE
EXACTITUDE. So you are going to have to use something else other than
similarities and universal themes (such as sex and religion) to prove that Lady
Gaga has COPIED anything from Madonna. So good luck with that. ;)
Why this long repeat when I already pointed out this scrolling is boring me? I will from now on simply not respond here anymore. Seeing as you are anyway repeating yourself.
ReplyDeleteBut I will address some in corrections.
No, I did NOT call Gaga an "all around better musician"
No I don't agree Gaga is a great performer on stage, much like her music, I find her shows derivative and boring and extremely annoying as soon as she starts "preaching" inanities.
No. I never used minor similarities as an argument
No I never called or suggested you artistry argument to be a "joke". I called it an opinion which you need to back up.
I already tried to explain to you my blueprint statement above.
It does little for you btw to show a complete lack of understanding my criticism and to then follow that up with an attempt to ridicule what you clearly did not understand. Just saying dude, if you keep up that kind of thing I don't even need Ad hominem, you are doing all the work for me. ;)
I am not familiar with disgus but I do know I am using Disqus every time I leave a comment. Not sure what kind of insult you attempted right at the start there but I CAN conclude you did not get to "stop" yet in the dictionary? You still seem somewhat confused on that action.
Again nothing but opinionated statements is all you throw at me.
ReplyDeleteReally, singing pop/gospel, catering to gays and “ugly” teens, and manipulating media is the best you could come up with? This is the proof that Lady Gaga has copied Madonna? You are such a letdown.
And then these “exhibit” arguments. And your justification that Madonna stole, but made it all “Madonna,” is such bullshit. She sure failed to make “Deep In Vogue” all her’s when she ripped the idea from Malcolm McClaren. Or Justify My Love when she stole the poem from Ingrid Chavez and sang it EXACTLY like her (the latter a court case she lost on copyright infringement).
So it is very interesting to me that you would then say this: “I said that if you want to stake such a claim for Gaga, you need to back that up with more than your opinion.”
When in this entire thesis of a comment have you done that? Never. I have given you legitimate examples. Google images of Dale Bozzio, Gaga’s style is a total homage (or copying as some have branded it) to Dale Bozzio. The famous lightning bolt on Gaga’s face (The Fame era) total David Bowie (obviously). The naming her fan base, again, very David Bowie (David Bowie: Space Cadets. Lady Gaga: Little Monsters). Lady Gaga’s The Fame fashion sense an exact reference to Grace Jones who wore similar fashion for her second musical era when promoting the album, coincidentally named, Fame.
And you come at me with these GERNALIZED SIMILARITIES about singing pop-gospel music, catering to gays and “ugly” kids, and manipulating media as proof!?!!??! AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sincerely I was really expecting some REAL argument from you, and I can honestly say you have been the WORST defender of Madonna I have ever come across.
“As for the songwriting..I still maintain that I would put money on the fact that if you'd go on the street almost anywhere in western society and ask random people on the street to hum a Madonna tune, they will be able to.(And some of those are written by Madonna herself btw)
I doubt this being the case when it comes to Gaga tunes. My bet would be EVERYBODY can inform you she wore a meat dress once..somewhere and they might even know the title Born This Way..but hum a song? Likely only actual Gaga fans will be able to do that.”
You sincerely doubt that a good portion of the people in western civilization can hum a Lady Gaga song? Hmm interesting since pretty much everyone who has access to civilization in the last 5 years can hum Poker Face, Paparazzi, Bad Romance, Alejandro, Telephone and Born This Way. Not to mention that Poker Face, Bad Romance, and Born This Way went #1 in over 20 countries. I can also back it up with radio statistics and sales, but to me this argument is asinine since they are both equally present in our world; one for being the fresh talent and one for the legacy she has left her entire career.
My argument about Lady Gaga’s songwriting is not about who has the most memorable songs, it is that Lady Gaga is a one woman show who can craft her own catchy tunes without the aid of writers and producers. So please don’t misconstrue my argument or twist it so it is something for which you can refute, because it is clear you are having trouble refuting anything I have stated.
So I will remain checking my Disqus account in the bleak hope that you will give me HARD evidence of Gaga’s alleged copying of Madonna, and a heads up just know what it means to copy and REFERENCE.
Oh and fyi there were singers/artists who sung pop/gospel music and catered to the gays way before Madonna popped into the scene. I would list some, but if you need a refresher on that than you are obviously a lost cause. Haha.
If that's the excuse you are going to use to just admit that you have used no REAL logical evidence to prove how Lady Gaga has taken a blueprint from Madonna, ok. I am fine with it. Those premises used in your prior response to me, again, will not work and will not suffice to prove your argument. USE COLD HARD evidence, not just opinions on similarity.
ReplyDeleteBecause anyone with half a brain and a real understanding of pop art and pop culture understands full well what Gaga has done and what she is doing.
Your convoluted mind is just obviously too caught up trying to bring Lady Gaga down that you cling to anything (in this case similarities) to prove her unoriginality.
So alas do as you will and cling to these similarities, in the end of it all Gaga remains the most promising thing to come out of pop music since the likes of Michael Jackson and Madonna. This, while an opinion, is a general consensus.
P.S.
You did agree that Lady Gaga is a better vocalist and that she plays piano (15 years I am sure make her more than proficient at it), these things combined with the fact that she is responsible for her crafting her own hits make her an all-around better musician than Madonna. And sincerely to argue this is just ludicrous, Lady Gaga’s musicality far out-reigns Madonna’s, there is no argument against that. But if you disagree, that is your opinion.
LOL In other words, you have no counter argument. Only attempts at ridicule.
ReplyDeleteYour counter argument to my criticism as to the very large and fundamental copying by Gaga of Madonna is mentioning tiny similarities and how she copied those from more artists than just Madonna?
And hilariously you in her "defense", point out she imitated Dale Bozio and Grace Jones( even so far as to call her first album the same but that is "coincidentally"?)
So your defense is that Gaga is a copycat of many artists, not just Madonna.
(They just happen to have been several of the very same artists who inspired Madonna)
"pop-gospel" what the hell dude? When did I ever say anything about gospel???
" this argument is asinine since they are both equally present in our world; "
And I never said they weren't. What I said is that I strongly suspect, would put money on Gaga's presence not being her actual music.
And of course unlike my supposition, you claim to know for a fact that "pretty much everyone who has access to civilization in the last 5 years
can hum Poker Face, Paparazzi, Bad Romance, Alejandro, Telephone and
Born This Way."
Again, I am not defending Madonna, I am criticizing Gaga's copying of
Madonna's career. As such I will obviously have to compare her to
Madonna.
"that Lady Gaga is a one woman show who can craft her own catchy tunes without the aid of writers and producers"
Really? That is not what the credits on her albums say dude.
Yes, I know the difference between copying and referencing or being inspired by. I explained it to you and other Gaga Stans many times.
But that is yet another thing you chose to ignore.
And yet more of those Ad hominem attacks you suggested we'd stop using.
Dude, it's clear your tactic of "defense" is to ignore, repeat lies, inaccuracies and opinions as if facts or arguments and generally, to use a word you seem to favor and I hope you therefor DO understand, post asinine replies.
I am pretty sure most people would and did give up replying to you rather sooner than I and you no doubt chalked these moments up to victorious defense of Gaga.
I am equally sure nothing you said countered my arguments in the minds of anybody but other Gaga Stans. I doubt you reached any critical mind with your posts. :)
"USE COLD HARD evidence,"
ReplyDeleteWhat do you expect? Math? You first dude. Use "cold hard evidence" to prove me wrong.
The rest of your comment is again claims of things I never said and response to those imaginary words.Ignoring words I did write, lots of opinion you mistake for fact and/or arguments, and some more Ad hominem attacks.
Oh and some twisting of your own previous words as well.
Dude, it is abundantly clear your mode of defense is to be such a silly ass that people just give up responding to you. Congrats. I am sure you are extremely successful at that. It doesn't change anything but is sure must make any discussion on Gaga you appear in a hell of a lot shorter.
And I bet that makes a whole lot of people happy. Especially Gaga fans. The less discussion, the easier to live in fantasy land.
Always works well for delusional fanatics. :)
I never called Gaga’s album the same as Grace Jones, all I did was point out that both were named almost identically. Secondly I never said Gaga “imitated” other artists such as Dale Bozzio and Grace Jones, I said she took from other artists like them more than Madonna, and obviously by “took” I meant she references. Because up until now I am unaware of what EXACTLY Gaga has stolen.
ReplyDeleteLady Gaga’s presence is felt everywhere. Charts a pretty decent indicator of what people are listening to right now. Gaga has had some of the biggest hits of recent memory and has been a radio staple since she came on to the scene, so for you to state that you’d bet money that people could hum a Madonna song and only recall Gaga because of the meat dress is truly reaching and makes you come across only as bitter and resentful towards her.
And to humor you what exactly have I ignored? I have done the utmost to stay on topic and only focus on your arguments. Arguments you have only backed up with supposed themes of Madonna’s career, a supposed “blueprint” Lady Gaga has fashioned from Madonna’s career, and the whole catering to gays & doing dance-pop music & manipulating media.
Is that really the rationale you are using to prove that Gaga has copied Madonna? If so… well the disappointment continues.
I have given you REAL evidence. I have already listed to you three people who Gaga has taken more from than Madonna. And you dismissed them as “tiny similarities.” These “similarities” are not tiny, I think you meant meticulous. Because there is an OBVIOUS and CLEAR link between Gaga and these people established from fashions she has worn, to musical styling, to stage/performance style.
It is this same type of link you are trying to establish between Gaga and Madonna, except you call it copying and try to back it up by using similarities in their careers themes, audience demographic, genre/type of music they make, and their command of the media.
And now that I notice, so far you only brand Gaga’s referencing and her influences as copying . Every time I say she took from someone you say I say she “copied.” It is very clear you are very upset with Gaga.
As for Gaga using producers in album and the writing credit at times attributed to them RedOne and Fernando Garibay (two of her prominent producers) have stated various times that Gaga gives them writing credit. Fernando stated this in a CNN interview and RedOne in an interview with latimes. And they have also said she is the one who comes up with the melodies and lyrics. If you truly knew Gaga you would know this. I mean you should know her since you are criticizing her.
I have yet to insult you again. If I call you ignorant it is because you are. You choose to ignore Lady Gaga’s other influences and how those influences have impacted her and her art. You only focus on Madonna and are trying to convince everyone (and yourself) that Gaga is only a Madonna-derivative. Never taking into account that Gaga is influenced by various other artists. And when I give you names of these other artists what do you do? You ignore it or say that they influenced Madonna as well and since Gaga is “copying” Madonna she also copied these influences. I.e.: “They just happen to have been several of the very same artists who inspired Madonna.”
If that isn’t enough to prove that you have some deep-rooted disdain and hatred for Gaga and that that is TRULY the only thing that drives your arguments against Gaga, then obviously nothing will suffice to try and enlighten you on the artist that Lady Gaga is. Because like the saying goes, “you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.”
It is obvious no matter what is said to you Lady Gaga is a copycat and a derivative act. Even though if there ever was a derivative act and a true copycat is has been Madonna.
I have given you real hard evidence by giving you more specific examples of Gaga’s referencing. These which you dismissed as tiny and stated that they were coincidentally Madonna’s influences as well.
ReplyDeleteMy mode of defense is to disprove what you say by proving my argument correct or more correct than that of my opponent.
So as it stands my argument is the only one which has been backed up by solid evidence (specific examples of other artists Lady Gaga has referenced more than Madonna) and rationale (pointing out that Madonna isn’t Gaga’s only influence and that similarities do not constitute exactitude). While your argument has been backed up by these Madonna career themes, some “blueprint” Gaga took from Madonna, and the similarities in the type of music they make, the type of people they cater too, and their manipulation of the media.
I have not ignored anything you have said. You are just hiding behind that excuse to get away from this discussion. But like I said if this serves as a way for you to back out, by all means do it. Because I never give up.
LOL doesn't look like I backed off of Gaga so far now has it? As you said..it's a hobby of mine. ;)
ReplyDeletePretty sad then.
ReplyDeleteAnd it is a hobby of mine to enlighten the ignorant, no matter how hard it is. I shall try my hardest to persevere. :)
Try harder dude, so far all you managed was to show yourself up as ignorant and Gaga as even more derivative than I thought.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteAnd yet out of all of that you have not refuted how Gaga draws inspiration and references other artists more than she does Madonna.
You criticized me for getting words wrong and what not or misquoting you, yet out of this whole 7 page rebuttal the only thing you talked about was my syntax and diction not what we were originally arguing for; the Lady Gaga is influenced more by other artists than Madonna, and thus isn’t a derivative or copycat of Madonna’s.
I have proven to you and have given you sources that show that Lady Gaga is influenced more by other artists than Madonna, the core argument between us. I have listed her references from Dale Bozzio, to Grace Jones, to David Bowie, to Annie Lennox and to Freddie Mercury. Given you specific examples, all of which you never refuted and only gone off on tangents. I have proven much more, far more, my points and arguments than you have.
The only thing you have mentioned are what I have already repeated the point of memorization; the “blueprint,” the themes in their careers, the demographic, the genre of music, and the whole media thing.
You have never ever given instances of when exactly Lady Gaga has copied Madonna. Never.
And the saddening part about this is that his last comment of yours you only made so as to not stop replying and thus “show” that you quit. It is my fault since I egged you on. You played the follower part quite well. I started quoting you, you did the same. I wrote longer comments, you then did the same again.
I will more than gladly continue debating with you, not because I won’t quit, but because I really want you to show me exactly where Gaga has copied Madonna. Enough with the similarities give me pictures, exact instances, specific moments. And just so you know chord progressions aren’t enough, because if that were the case every musician or composer would be suing each other.
And lastly if your argument is that Gaga is just a derivative, of not just Madonna, but of many other artists. Well, have I got some shocking news for you. Every artist takes inspiration from others. So the sad reality is every artist is derivative, if your view and rationale is anything to go by. :)
P.S.
If I wanted my comeback, I’d wipe if your face. So please don’t use my own lines against me, be creative. ;)
Hahahahaha!!! Please if anyone is trying harder it is you.
ReplyDeleteThat lengthy comment was hilarious. You are desperate. If you are so sure you are right just stop replying or say you are done.
I won't stop because I am not looking to prove myself correct; I am looking to be proven incorrect, which so far you have been very unsuccessful in doing so.
You know Socrates’s story right? He never argued to prove his thoughts correct, he argued to understand and so his opponents could prove themselves correct. That is why he never stopped debating or arguing. The same goes here for me. Like I said, I am not looking to be disproven or proven correct, I am looking to see if you will prove what you say correct.
If I bring up counterarguments it is because it is only natural and logical. If I find a flaw in your logic or what you are arguing I will point it out so you can refine your claim and make it better. Sadly sometimes this might not be possible, so the war wages on. ;)
Really dude? You are comparing yourself to Socrates???
ReplyDeleteThat is the most hilariously inane claim you staked so far.
But ..I am pretty sure these days we call people behaving like you a Troll.
Here's a very obvious difference between you and Socrates ( aside of course from the main ones..IQ level, motivation and subject matters), he knew the importance of language.
In fact, he would go all obsessive about using the exact correct word for what you are trying to say. You however often use words without understanding how to and keep complaining when I point out your even most basic incorrect use.
Madonna is a nasty, bitter old hag. She is always slagging off other artists who have way more talent than her. Didn't she say some horrible things about Mariah in the 90's? LOL funny, considering Mariah could sing that bitch under the table. Lady Gaga seems like a really nice person, and she is a great artist. Very underrated.
ReplyDeleteWell that is your opinion about me isn't it. And the comparison I made between Socrates and myslef wasn't about intellect, but simply our quest to be enlightened.
ReplyDeleteMy IQ is what it is and I am not going to argue with you about it, because quite frankly I don't care what you about my intelligence. :)
Yes it is my opinion deduced from your posts and thank heavens you don't care. Because if you did care you sure failed in ensuring a higher opinion of it. :)
ReplyDeleteAs you do again in this reply of yours.
So, nothing to disprove my opinion then. Just requests for proving mine by rules under which you couldn't disprove my opinions either.
ReplyDeleteDo you have hard proof she did not read the standard reviews on the person she claims to be someone she admires and whose career she claims to have followed since she was a child? Do you have proof she did not attend Tisch or what that school focuses on and produces?
Aside from your requests and inability to disprove my opinion, all you got here is your opinions and some more hypocrisy like accusing me of sweeping generalizations while using those yourself ("the only issues Madonna ever handled were religious and sexual") and pinpointing dissimilarities while stating "pinpointing similarities wont work".
And "the only sexual issue Gaga handles is the one of gay rights"? At this point I am starting to wonder..are you even familiar with Gaga's work?
And fyi I was talking about both her lyrics and her press when I talked about her victim attitude.
Your false claim of her "alienating her fan base because of fighting for gay rights" being a shining example of that very kind of thing. Not to mention the whole premise of "born this way" and choice of that as a title.
I am sure you think Madonna never "talked" about bullying, That's because likely if it isn't spelled out for you ( thank heavens Gaga has no trouble doing that eh) it flies right over your head.
If Art can be taught, it is not entirely subjective.
You admitted being a troll by giving the very definition of trolling and then stating that was what you are doing here. You just called it Socrates' story. Likely in the hopes of me not knowing Plato. Ooops! I do.
All in all you just put up your opinion against mine and that's about it.
That's all interesting, I guess. :)
ReplyDeleteYeah, it must be for one so desiring to be "enlightened".
ReplyDeleteI can help you with that btw...try reading a book on spin and one on PR and also on critical thinking and reading.
And realize journalism is dead.
You might realize one day how the stuff you seem to be lapping up as 'cold hard evidence" is not indicative of her genuineness but in fact quite the opposite.
Her concern for bullying, her concern for one or two matters concerning the LGBT community....it's PR and part of the package you are being sold.
More proof for my view in fact.
Because I for one don't buy into her being part of that community ( pr in itself already ) and talking about the very subjects you would gather from mass media are the "major concerns" of teens and gays....What an amazing coincidence! /s
Just the rules everyone with a decent grasp on logic uses when they
ReplyDeletemake a claim and want to prove it. You say something and then give
specific, SPECIFIC, examples of why what you say is true. Something you
haven’t done yet"
Leaving aside the Ad hominem...you came in replying to my statements, arguing them.
Rules of logic say YOU are the one who needs to come up with a counter as to why what I said is incorrect.
Your first argument was that Madonna copied Cher's career the way I say Gaga copied Madonna's.
Now right there you already failed because that is blatantly incorrect. And I showed you why. Even though that is patently unnecessary to anybody who know all three careers.
You then ignored my criticism and instead pretended I stated something I didn't state and then proceeded to argue these statements I never made. Which did not therefore refute my actual criticism.
You the acted as if my actual criticism was a side issue and tried to ridicule it. but you NEVER refuted it.
Then you wanted hard proof for something you have no hard counter proof for either. But I sure made the case that Gaga admits to having followed Madonna's career ( which means she should know it) and we know Gaga attended Tisch and I pointed out what that school teaches and what kind of 'artists' it mostly produces. Artists who are quite savvy on how the music bizz and PR works and what sells to which demographics.
Again you come with mentioning your examples, the ones which are correct being but proof for my criticism.
That nonsense about Mercury and Lennox you really should drop dude. Nobody is going to believe that comparing Gaga to these people just because they also occasionally sat behind the piano on stage is a counter argument to Gag's DVD clearly demonstrating her shows are way more similar to Madonna's than you want to admit.
I don't know where you even came up with attempting that Lennox/Mercury argument but I strongly suspect it worked for you once with some Gaga critic who was too young and/or too lazy to bother with research but I already pointed out to you, I am of an age that I saw Madonna appear on the scene. That means I also am well aware of Lennox and Mercury. So even if I didn't have the evidence of the inanity of your comparison available on youtube, I know from having witnessed their careers live so to speak exactly how inane your claim is.
I assume that was a typo and you meant Plato. Quite amusing how you try an Ad hominem again but actually dude, I didn't use Plato as an anology. YOU did. I merely pointed out that I suspect you did that in the hopes that I wouldn't know what you were referring to.
Thanks for again demonstrating the reference is in fact too high brow for your own understanding. As I already pointed out. What you are doing is called trolling. The difference lies in your IQ and your motivation.
It also lies in the fact that Socrates did not start out by ignoring the actual subject, mistake opinions, Ad hominem and ridicule as arguments and was not in the business of lying about his motivation.
Because you don't seek knowledge like Socrates did, you, Mr. selfprofessed "eat.sleep, breath, shit Gaga", are an immature and insecure Stan who cannot stand anybody criticizing your idol. Not even on some small blog on the internet.
And you are so immature and dim, you actually think trolling someone into giving up replying means you successfully countered the criticism.
And hon, "originality" is not my intent. Truthfulness is.
Deeply ironic though a Gaga fan demanding "originality" from her critics.