Now we all know that Madonna is one shady character, and someone who is fond of cryptically- or not so cryptically in the case of Mariah Carey and Janet Jackson- attacking others when it suits her (most noticeably when she needs publicity). We also know that Lady Gaga's Born This Way sounds a lot like Madonna's classic Express Yourself and that the Queen of pop herself commented on the likeness by saying,
"When I heard ['Born This Way'] on the radio… I said, 'That sounds very familiar'… It felt reductive. "
This being the case, when footage from Madonna's latest tour rehearsal leaked showing her performing a mash-up of Express Yourself and Born This Way, one couldn't help but question her motives for doing it.
Is this "shade" of the highest order from Madonna? With Gaga being on her own, very successful, tour at the minute, could Madonna be having a dig at the star and her career? After all, of all the Gaga songs Madonna could have chosen to cover she picked the one song she herself labelled "reductive".
Or is Madonna simply telling everyone who assumes that there is beef between the stars that they are above all of that with the inclusion of this medley. Both songs do have similar themes of empowerment, and they are also the reason why many assume a problem exists between the stars, so it could be a fitting choice.
As of now I'm going to take this video as a sign of goodwill from Madonna- I'm a fool, right? However, if this medley doesn't make it into the final show then I am more inclined to believe that this was purely for publicity and another cheap shot from Madonna at Gaga.
What do you guys think? Shade, or no shade?
Update: Just took another listen, don't know how I managed to miss the repeated "she's not me" at the end... I think that pretty much speaks for itself. Definitely shade.
Tour Footage:
Regarding that "She's not me"...had a discussion just yesterday where someone was trying to sell to me that Gaga only sounds derivative because she is struggling with similar themes. Like Catholicism. And my point of view was that Madonna's youth one can see leading to such strong issues with Catholicism, Gaga's youth seems to have been one very privileged. As I see it, the most offensive bit of derivative action by Gaga is her copying of Madonna's "struggles" as she expressed them in her work.
ReplyDeletelol. "Shade" is the slang term for being snide. What I don't understand is why Madonna doesn't let it go. I can't see how these shenanigans do her any favours what so ever. Mariah and Janet I can get because they were her peers, and were Über successful at the same time. But her knocking someone who many see as being more popular- currently- only makes her look desperate. She should be smarter than that. Perhaps its all just fun and games for her.
ReplyDeleteThe comments on that video are laughable.
ReplyDeleteI think her extreme fans are quick to act like Gaga invented the earth and the heavens above,
and bash Madonna, calling her irrelevant and how Gaga's impact is far superior to Madonna's.
Do they not realize Gaga is a byproduct of the impact that Madonna made?
I feel this mash-up was a publicity stunt and a bit of "shade" :P
Well, since I, as I said, feel that the worst thing Gaga is doing is pretending to struggle with Madonna's issues ( the operative word being "pretending") I can imagine if Madonna views it the same way, that is more than musical or popularity competition, it would be real offensive. Just a theory on what might possible perhaps theoretically be going on there.
ReplyDeleteiow I think it might not be fun and games nor not being smart nor petty but something way deeper.
And being a wicked witch myself I'd say, it would hardly be surprising for Gaga to "steal" Madonna's issues. If you lack personality /substance/ depth yourself you need to find it elsewhere. That and a "cause". If you want to become as big as Madonna once was that is.
Oh, and thank you for the explanation. :)
I think when people have so much of an emotional investment in an artist they cant stand to hear anything bad about them. But i personally think anyone who is impartial can see the similarities. But by the same token, Madonna fans need to realise she didn't create everything either. The Marilyn Monroe similarities being the most obvious.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I can't help but like the wicked witch Madonna is becoming!
But I seem to remember Madonna always said she was trying to copy Marilyn?
ReplyDeleteAnd she had a reason behind it which clearly came from within her and her life experiences. Gaga's "inspired Art" seems to me coming purely from playing the industry. Though I guess the need for fame can always be seen as a motivation from within. ;D
And from personal experience I can tell you...all us. well vast majority anyway, women become wicked witches once we start hitting those late late forties and on. Haven't you ever seen 'Grumpy Women"? LOL
I wouldn't be all that surprised if Madonna just got pissed at Gaga... And I believe I would feel the same on her shoes. IMO Gaga was far more interesting when she was collecting references from several pop stars and turning herself into a pop pastiche... For some reason she started believing it would be nice to inspire herself more and more on Madonna since Alejandro, maybe she or her team believed way too much on the "new Madonna" hype media created, I don't know, and as someone said, Madonna's inspirations were always very clear and open, while Gaga really tends to avoid the subject and pretend both songs sound similar only because they are both dance tracks or saying that Madonna aproved the track when she didn't...
ReplyDeleteAnd weren't Mariah and Janet dissing Madonna on the time Madonna did the same to them? I don't know who started, but none of those ladies, but I don't really believe any of them fits the damsel in distress role. :P
Ugh, I hate feuds. Madonna has said before that she's a fan of Gaga and vice versa. Was there ever any real "beef" between them? People love drama.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I think the medley sounds great.
I don't think Gaga 'stole' anything though. I just think they have the same chord structure and a similar beat. The melodies are actually pretty different, 'Express Yourself' having much longer phrasing than 'Born this Way'. Nothing is completely original, in a sense all art is 'reductive' and owes a debt to previous influencing artworks, so it's a pretty silly thing for Madonna to say.
ReplyDeleteAnd a similar message. I think btw there's a little confusing going here regarding that word "reductive". I gather that's the word she used but most seem to assume she meant derivative. In light of your statement and the actual meaning of reductive I have to very much disagree with you. Not all art is reductive.
ReplyDeleteIf you meant derivative I'd still have to disagree. There is a difference between being inspired by and being derivative.
My apologies - I did indeed get reductive and derivative confused - I have since dictionaried myself ;o) and stand corrected!
ReplyDeleteHowever, if Madonna was suggesting that 'Born This Way' was reductive of 'Express Yourself', then it sort of makes me laugh - I don't think that there was much of a message to actually simplify...aren't they both just fun 'feel good about yourself' pop songs, much in the same vein as 'I Will Survive'? It's not as though people considered either Madonna or Gaga's song a work of lyrical genius. I'd say they are about level in terms of artistic greatness :O) I love Madonna but I accept that what she does is great pop, and only that.
I still stand by all art being inspired by something else though....everything we create is a product of our previous influences, it's not something you can help.
How would that be throwing shade? And it is really anyones opinion as to whether or not the album she did release was great. I personally think its a fun album and not her best, but I know of people that see it as her best.
ReplyDeleteI didn't really mean "throwing shade," I meant if she really wanted to put Gaga in her place, she could have released an amazing album. And of course, it's based on opinion if it's a great album or not, but considering her calling "Born This Way" reductive, you'd think she'd release an album that wasn't full of reductive tracks.
ReplyDeleteYes but my point was that inspired by isn't the same thing as being derivative.
ReplyDeleteAs for the messages of Madonna and Gaga. Again, I feel Gaga simply "stole" that from Madonna ( and others) in the way that she uses it to give her pop music more validity ( or tries to anyway). Of course both make but pop music but Madonna on a whole definitely had a view she was trying to get across to the world, as it were, about women's self image and sexuality in general.
I think Madonna as a person has a much "bigger" personality than Gaga has anyway
At the time, that message might have been a bit more relevant than Gaga's rehashing of it is now. Least that is my opinion.
As I said before on this blog regarding this...back when Madonna had her heyday, her views were shocking to many people. The only thing "shocking"about Gaga's views is in the eyes of the muslim part of the world it seems. In the west what people know of Gaga who aren't fans is that she wears weird stuff. Indeed, not much of a message to "the world" there really. ;)
I don't think either is an artistic great but seeing as I think Madonna was inspired by stuff and Gaga is derivative of, for me Madonna is a bit ahead of Gaga artistically.
Lyrically neither woman comes even close to claiming artistic greatness for sure. In my view anyway :)
Gaga really is a byproduct of Madonna's influence, right down to the tacky attention seeking tactics. I find it funny that Madonna has the balls to call gaga reductive when everything about this era for her has been just that. Btw I'm a not a fan of either one of them.
ReplyDeleteI don't see how so many claim Gaga is derivative/not an artist. She "borrowed" just as much as Madonna, yet I think both are unique in what they do. What fascinates me about Gaga is how she twists our perception of the modern celebrity by always staying "in performance". I'm also fascinated in how she portrays herself as a Mother-Goddess figure- as opposed to the traditional girl next door- and how she uses that platform to create a "religion" of love + accpetence through her relationship with the fans. She manages to insert a lot of humanity (via vulnerability) into her calculated character. On top of that, I think she is an interesting response to Britney, Xtina, and several other 'post-Madonna' female pop megastars by the way she complicates her role as sex symbol by blending together glamour and hypersexuality with grotesque and repulsive imagery. Conceptually, I think she's fabulous, though on occasion she drags in execution.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't around in Madonna's heyday but from what I've gathered she is very appreciative of the arts and draws a lot of inspiration from painters, filmakers,different time periods, etc. and likes to slide their asthetic into her work (Frida Kahlo, Horst, etc). I thought her most glorious artistic moment was how she merged together sex and divinity in the Like A Prayer song and video.
Just my thoughts. I wonder if anyone will understand my blabber. :)
LOL Good thing you added that btw ;)
ReplyDelete0:46, pretty similar chorus, comparing to express yourself... ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpW9-_qT7H4
ReplyDeletei honestly think people compare gaga to madonna more through her outrageous imagery than on her music
ReplyDeleteborn this way is really the only song that people blame gaga for "copying" madonna for
and personally image-wise gaga is so much more outrageous than madonna and to me she reminds me more of david bowie
i honstly dont understand how people can bash gaga for being influenced by madonna when madonna herself drew inspiration from so many artists in her day
take a look at this : http://www.aishamusic.com/lawsuit_many_artists_madonna_stole_from.htm
now im not hating on madonna - its just this should have been over with a long time ago
and it is extremely petty and immature for madonna to bring this up again
why does madonna and her fans feel the need to bring up and bash gaga at every chance they get? if madonna is a legend and if gaga is nowhere near as good as madonna then why do they give her the time of day
i love both i own all of madonna's studio albums and i own all three of gaga's albums so i still dont understand why we just cant all get along
so its okay for madonna to copy marilyn monroe but not gaga to borrow from madonna?
ReplyDeletei am a fan of both and neither artist is truly original
ReplyDeleteso the stans just need to stop
THE SHADE!. So apparently its
ReplyDelete'reductive' enough for her to incorporate into her act? I love how
she has to keep using Gaga's name or anything related to her for
publicity she did it for her album and now for her tour. Hilarious
LOL I felt the need to add it because I always get accused of being a Gaga stan every time I say something negative about Madonna.
ReplyDeleteI like how you change the word "copy" to "borrow."
ReplyDeletewhatever madonna borrowed from marilyn, gaga borrows from madonna
ReplyDeletethe point is madonna didnt invent anything and gaga didnt either
well madonna's work is also derivative of symbolism by artists
ReplyDeleteshe borrowed from marilyn monroe, marlene dietrich, bette davis, cyndi lauper and many more
you may think madonna is original but shes not look at this website
http://www.aishamusic.com/lawsuit_many_artists_madonna_stole_from.htm
i am an extreme fan and i do know gaga is influenced by madonna - but how could she not be
ReplyDeletechristina, britney, katy, rihanna, and yes gaga are all inspired by madonna
but like these girls were inspired
madonna was also inspired by people before her and her contemporaries
and just as lady gaga's fans have been saying this - there is an equal number claiming everything madonna created was solely her own and act as if she created everything in pop music - dont be so one sided
this crap better not escalate to lil kim - nicki minaj status
ReplyDeleteso far gaga hasn't responded
Okay, I get what you're saying and I agree with you. Too bad some people don't realize that.
ReplyDeleteI understood. In fact, I am glad that somebody who it seems likes Gaga, is willing to admit it is an act that she is in whenever she is in public. That however is my main issue with Gaga...dis ingenuity. Well that and the derivative factor because...
ReplyDeleteThat blending of glamour and hyper sexuality with grotesque and repulsive imagery is conceptually not Gaga's nor even all that new.
Much btw like Madonna's merching of together of sex and divinity was hardly a new concept.
I really don't think either is a great and original "Artist". And I think it is ridiculous to treat their work as if it is Art.
It's popmusic using pr to sell itself. I do think one can compare the two to eachother and then inevitably, in my opinion, the conclusion is that though both took inspiration from all kinds of people, all in all, Gaga's work is more derivative of Madonna's than Madonna's ever was of any particular pop singer before her.
Any interview I saw of the two, I get the impression Madonna is more intelligent and has a way bigger personality than Gaga.
Considering that and the truly obvious similarity in themes between the two, I believe Madonna's act was/is inspired by her personality whereas Gaga's act is hiding the fact that she doesn't have a very strong personality.
I think this is also reflecting in their lyrics. Madonna's being more "in your face" and Gaga's being more "I'm a victim of society but I am going to overcome that"
YES, it is "okay" to copy Marylin's look because you very much draw her into your work because of the effect these old movies had on you as a child and you say that's what you are doing and that's why you are doing it because your themes are very connected to who you are and how you grew up.
ReplyDeleteNO, it is not "okay" to borrow the themes and continue the themes and looks and "message" of another person simply because experience tells you that's what works in popmusic and you lack the personality/ experiences to actually have any themes or issues you are struggling with yourself.
Not all criticism aimed at Gaga comes from Madonna fans. Nor is that criticism about "who is the greatest". A lot of it is criticism on Gaga's work. The reason to bring in Madonna?...BECAUSE Gaga is so derivative of her. It's the basis of the criticism!
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree Gaga is in fact more outrageous the way Bowie was..all flash and visual stuff. Madonna was also considered outrageous for her actions and views expressed. ( and no, the fact that reli middle America is outraged when Gaga says something gay friendly does not count . They'd be outraged by just about anything not straight out of an "imaginary" fifties USA ;D)
Yes, you already linked me to that list once before and I already responded to you and your list then and again now further down in this comment section. :)
ReplyDeleteYes indeed. Those all were inspired by Madonna except Gaga who went a step further and decided to "borrow" as well.
ReplyDeleteI mean, don't you see the difference between the straight up pop music and acts the other ladies are and Gaga with her pretenses of themes and a message and "performance Art"
Guess you don't but the critics of Gaga sure do.
I also think people who got offended or hurt by it, or even those who think she is doing that to "destroy" Gaga are taking things way too seriously...
ReplyDeleteIn the end of the day, Gaga needed to allow her using the music... And I'm pretty sure she is well aware she IS enpowering Gaga by doing this... On the same way Gaga enpowers Madonna by inspiring herself on Madge's stuff.
And... isn't she singing "Respect yourself" between Born this Way and She's not me? Maybe the message was "I know you can do better than that, bitch". :P
"BECAUSE Gaga is so derivative of her. It's the basis of the criticism!"
ReplyDeleteBut if that is your main criticism, it doesn't make much sense seeing as Madonna is pulled from and even stole from more people in the past thirty years than every current popstar today combined. It's as if some of you Madonna fans completely forget the 80s and 90s. Even most of the stuff she's been doing this "era" has been pulled from other artists, yet because she's the "Queen of Pop", she gets a slide.
Good lord, the hurdles Madonna fans will jump through to justify her plagiarism in an attempt to diss Gaga is hilarious. Marilyn is not the only person Madonna has "borrowed" from. Madonna has effectively stolen iconography from almost every iconic woman in pop culture history, thus why people of today, whose knowledge only dates back to when Madonna popped up, think Madonna is the original Queen of Pop.
ReplyDeleteYou'd think if Gaga was as big of a thief as you claim, she would have sued for plagiarism like Madonna has been, but she hasn't, so who really is the one who has "gone a step further and borrowed as well"?
ReplyDeleteRead on, there's more further down.
ReplyDeleteAnd as I stated there...I am not a "Madonna fan" nor did I forget the 80s and 90s. I lived through those as an adult. ;)
Interesting viewpoint, Dita. I admit, I was pissed off after finding out about this, because I thought she was trying to insult Gaga, but what if this is Madonna's way of saying she accepts Gaga? I can't really see why Madonna would go out of her way to put together an entire performance that is supposed to be one giant insult. I know Madonna is bitchy and petty, but I do not believe she is that upset over Gaga "stealing" what she originally stole.
ReplyDeleteBut maybe Madonna is truly upset and she thinks by doing this, she will assert herself as the "Queen of Pop", like she's desperately been trying to do this entire era. Unfortunately, however, I feel like this will do nothing but backfire on her. She's basically spitting in the face of the younger generation with this performance and Gaga is going to come out as the poor victim. From the looks of it, this whole tour is going to be all about shocking people. It's the same ol', tired blasphemous imagery now with an insulting twist.
Madonna is a perfect example of derivative, same as Gaga, but that is why they're both so successful. This is a great website to prove my point on Madonna:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.listal.com/list/lady-gaga-did-not-steal
But of course you will, like every other Madonna fan, come up with a plethora of excuses as to why Madonna was simply inspired by those people.
Because you can steal "themes and messages" and many more aspects of an act in fact but you can't sue for plagiarism when someone does. You can only sue over that which you can also copyright.
ReplyDeleteAnd I am still waiting for someone to give me more info on those legal cases because that cute list by the Gaga Stan tells us when Madonna was sued but doesn't tell us the outcome of those cases.
If it was something "deeper", Madonna could simply contact Lady Gaga personally, not act like a 12-year-old by including one of Gaga's songs in a mashup. No matter how you try to spin what Madonna is doing, it's desperate, tacky, immature, and attention-seeking.
ReplyDelete"Maybe she's really offended." Haha, then I guess Madonna's not the tough girl she tries to make people think she is, which I guess means she's just as fake as Gaga.
And she won't because she doesn't give in to pettiness like this. She rarely comments on negativity and she will most likely not say one thing about this whole thing, which in all honesty is the highest form of "shade".
ReplyDelete"
ReplyDeleteMadonna's inspirations were always very clear and open" You don't get sued for plagiarism when your inspirations are always very clear and open.
Gaga ALWAYS tells us who she is inspired by when people ask her. She has never been afraid to do that and will at any time tell you what she's wearing, where it came from, and who inspired her music. That is why there's never been a case of plagiarism, because, you know, you can't sue someone who didn't steal from anyone.
You are missing the point.Which is probably because clearly the hurdle jumping is being done by you. OR because you didn't really read beyond that yes and no? I thought I pretty clearly explained the difference between being inspired by and being derivative in that post.
ReplyDelete( btw not to score a point but just because next time someone maybe will try to use it...you jump over hurdles or through hoops. If you try to jump through hurdles you end up like you just did...flat on your face. ;) )
And if Gaga were to say "I'm trying to copy Madonna", you would wet yourself with joy and use it against her for the next ten years.
ReplyDeleteI am afraid you are tripped by those hurdles yet again...an honestly admitting thief can still be sued for stealing. His honesty doesn't constitute proof he didn't do it.
ReplyDeleteNor is whether someone ever sued you over it proof you didn't do something.
Oops, I thought you were seriously arguing my point of view but I just discovered you are merely a Gaga stan running all over the internet "defending" Gaga.
ReplyDeleteOh PU-LEASE. Again with that nonsense. Gaga was not bullied or more depressed than every fikking teenager in history of high schools. She IS however a child from a privileged environment with two living, still married, rich and very supportive parents.
ReplyDeleteShe had no struggles and her only "issue" is a desperate need to be world famous.
Well that and the fact that her actual musical talent is of such an average nature that this alone would never have gotten her to that "exalted" state.
LOL "Gaga is going to come out as the poor victim" Her favorite position ain't it. Hey, maybe Gaga is paying Madonna to do this for her. Now that people are questioning how much of a victim of bullying Gaga ever really was, she can hire Madonna to "bully" her and yet again try using Madonna's work as validity for her pr nonsense. ;)
ReplyDelete@Stan Anthagio And now I am done with your non arguments combined with clearly untrue accusations my way. If last time you showed up here is any indication, you will not come with anything better than that anyway and just disappear off to stan the next internet Gaga critic.
ReplyDeleteAgain splat you went, flat on your face. Them damn hurdles eh. Especially the one called "logical reasoning"
ReplyDeleteNope, being able to feel offended doesn't make her less tough than Madonna has ever tried to make people think she is, She never tried to convince people she lacks human feeling. She tried to convince people she doesn't care about social conventions.
Even though I dislike Gaga, she's so fucking sweet, she'd probably say, "I'm honored to have the Queen singing my song."
ReplyDeleteThat article you linked to is bullshit (not commenting on the lawsuits). Especially with the pictures, you can do that with any picture in the world, find a similar one.
ReplyDeleteThat's an unfair comparison since Gaga has only been out since 2008 and Madonna has been out since 1983. She'd has much more time to get sued (by the way, I'm not condoning plagiarism).
ReplyDeleteHow is that different from the hurdles you Gaga stand jump through to justify the fact that she's just a Madonna doppelganger? So far the only arguments I've heard from you is that Madonna has also copied other artists. How the hell does help Gaga?
ReplyDeleteYou do realize that just because someone doesn't like Gaga, they're not necessarily a Madonna fan? And all Madonna fans don't hate Gaga. And all Gaga fans don't hate Madonna.
ReplyDeletePlease go stan somewhere else. Your mother monster made a special social networking site for you all. Perhaps you can go there.
I dont think this is meant as anything negative towards GaGa, because if it was, that's incredibly hypocritical and also quite silly, and everyone knows that Madonna is far from that. By incorporating any of GaGa's work into her rehearsal/show (whether its for shock value or artistic similarities - which I believe this is down to) this just implies that Madonna needs GaGa's status to make anything more of her image, which I don't believe either.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, regardless of what Madge's intentions were, I don't really care. I still love GaGa and I still admire Madonna for what she has done for pop culture.
Yes thank you Hannah. That is a point I didn't even get to. Indeed the fact that the one steals is hardly an argument when another is accused of stealing. Otherwise each crime committed could be represented in prison by exactly one, very old prisoner.
ReplyDeleteSure would cut down tax payer expenses wouldn't it ;)
That's not true, only if Madonna were making a dvd and or recording it and receiving some type of monetary gain as a direct result of performing the song would she need Gaga's permission, at this point it is considered a cover. Not to mention they are BOTH signed by Interscope, so I'm sure some rights are owned by the label. Kind of like when Katy Perry sang BTW at one of her concerts
ReplyDeleteI think Anthagio assumes I am like him. In the same month on the one site calling Rhianna a talentless hack and on the other site stating to love Rhianna but just not her last album.
ReplyDeleteHe also assumes his accusations that people criticizing Gaga don't do research is correct. He is wrong. I researched his activity and found he is a Gaga stan who goes around accuses others of the very things he is doing himself on other sites. Lying about being a fan or not, bashing Gaga's biggest competitors and most of all trying to jump through hurdles in the most ineffective manner trying to defend his hero.
And now, after failing in his defense, he goes and tries to bash the critic all over the place. LOL .
First off by extreme fans, I was referencing those commenting on the video
ReplyDeletenot in the broad sense.
And yes Madonna was inspired by others and borrowed from others, everyone since the beginning of time has been inspired by someone or something, it's just how it goes.
I don't mind inspirations and borrowing, not one bit because nothing is truly original.
I don't place a high value on originality because it's not there, I do however hold authenticity to a high standard.
Madonna despite all her borrowing was a very authentic artist, everything she did seemed to be coming from her. Even though it wasn't original she sold it like it was.
Also no one is being one sided here, I was simply talking about the fans on that video.
You may find it one-sided because I'm simply addressing the fan base at hand, had this been a video of Gaga covering Madonna and her stans stating something on the video I'd have said something about them. At the time I viewed the video there was nothing but pages upon pages of gaga fans posting things similar to what I stated in my post so I felt the need to say that. Had I seen Madonna stans acting like Madonna was a pop Jesus I would have said something as well, I wasn't being one sided I was just addressing things as I saw them at that particular moment.
I agree with everything you said. I also think "originality" is overrated. I mean, of course things are going to bare similarities because there's nothing new under the sun.
ReplyDeleteno one is questioning how much gaga has been bullied
ReplyDeleteyou are the only one questioning this
and we will never know but she has said many times that in high school some girls recruited some guys to put her in the trash can and make fun of her
now we dont know if this happened but we also dont know this didnt happen
and madonna is the one pulling PR stunt with this crap
madonna is a legend i dont know why she feels the need to attack someone who has barely been in the game for four years
yes but ive seen countless comments on youtube and articles of madonna stans doing the same thing comparing outfits gaga has worn to outfits madge wore and they use that as a basis to argue that gaga is copying her
ReplyDeleteso those comparisons on that website prove that madonna did not invent everything and that she also wore outifts that people in the past wore before her
and many musicians claim madonna stole from them
so if madonna is bashing gaga for "re-doing" her song then people need to realize madonna didnt invent everything
how is she the only one being disingenuous
ReplyDeletemadonna also borrowed imagery and elements of music back in her day
it doesnt help but it proves that madonna herself wasnt completely original
ReplyDeleteso gaga shouldnt be bashed for borrowing because madonna borrowed too
neither of them is completely original - so neither have the right to claim they are original
I have a quote that basically sums up how I feel about all this
ReplyDelete" Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent ... It’s not where you take things from - it’s where you take them to."
how do you know she didnt have struggles?
ReplyDeleteshe could have had a really low self esteem
just because your parents are well off doesnt automatically mean you are free of worries
if gaga says she was bullied - i believe her
and why are you belittling her musical talent im pretty sure madonna's musical talent is more average than hers
ok coming from a gaga fan
ReplyDeletecan we all just get along
madonna is not original - gaga is not original
they are both successful and there's no reason for any of us to get our panties in a bunch
just let gaga do her thing and madge do her thing
if madonna is throwing gaga some shade - well that's her decision
we should just let it all play out
yes there are crazy little monsters out there but there are a lot of crazy madonna fans too...
I totally agree!! I mean some people on here are defending Gaga likes she's paying their bills! And me, well, I have nothing better to do, hahaha. But I agree, they said they're fans of each other so we should just let this play out however. They're both rich and two of the biggest popstars on the planet.
ReplyDeleteGreat quote! I'm gonna have to remember that one. That's how I feel, as well.
ReplyDeleteLOL well, I DID hear others express the same view. And you cannot seriously be suggesting Madonna is the only one of the two "pulling publicity stunts".
ReplyDeletePFFF How MANY times do I have to explain the difference between using stuff you connected to childhood memories and using stuff because it worked for another popstar and you hope it will work for you too?
ReplyDeleteI am not belittling, I am giving what I think is a fair assessment.Now please direct me to where I ever said Madonna is more talented? Hell, I wouldn't never even say that.
ReplyDeleteAverage as I think Gaga is amongst the singers and instrumentalist I know, I would say she is a better singer than Madonna and as far as I know a better piano player as well. Don't know if Madonna plays piano even. Or any other instrument for that matter.
what?
ReplyDeletewhat is the difference - you are still using something that isnt completely yours
and gaga has stated many times she is inspired by madonna and she even said once that she and her mother used to dance around in the living room when she was small to all of madonna's songs......
Again, that "Yes... No..." comment of mine further down explains it as do several others. If you still don't get it perhaps I am just incapable of getting through to you or you are incapable of seeing the difference .
ReplyDeleteI am thinking the latter and to be honest, and I could be way off here, but you sound like you are still very young and it might simply be a matter of age.
But for now, I give up trying to explain. This is simply how I see it and you see it all very differently. :)
Well, that's what performers do. They use their persona to manipulate an audience. Gaga herself admits she is a show without the intermission, a woman always "on camera".
ReplyDeleteThere are never any "new" concepts, only new periods in time. Both these ladies took something old and reinterpreted it to signify an idea in the CONTEXT of their own time. It's Madonna reinterpreting Marilyn Monroe through the feminist angle of her generation. It's Gaga reconstructing the definition of fame and celebrity through the way she mobilizes her fanbase and projects herself on the internet. That is Art to me, no matter how "low-brow" people consider pop music to be.
I don't see the purpose in you trying to determine who is more intelligent by watching to see how articulate they appear in interviews. You should be judging them by the work they create, and the content of their words. Personality, is of course very subjective and also depends on how one wishes to process public figures. Can you clarify the part where you mention Gaga does not derive much inspiration from her life experiences? How does that even make sense, for any artist?
The "content of her word"? That is exactly what I judge her for. If I see this woman stand on stage delivering her "message" to her fans of if you're being bullied just remember one day you too can take revenge with meaningless fame.
ReplyDeleteWhich is basically the simplistic message I heard from her own mouth.
If I hear her speak of "my little monsters" and I hear her speak in interviews in a way that strikes me of being of average intelligence, if I read the message in her lyrics. All pretty superficial and even inane sounding to most adults. THAT's when I start thinking she doesn't have the intelligence to create the art you think she is creating. In fact, as I said, hearing her talk about that artist she so admires...she isn't even able to talk about that "art", the way you can "art critic babble" over her "art". ;)
But she does have the smarts ( and education. "She went to Tisch") to know how to achieve large scale fame in today's society. Now if you want to consider that achievement a form of Art, that's your prerogative. I personally consider it a form of commercialism. Which is btw how I "process public figures"..as commercial meaningless tripe in most cases.
Yes, "personality" is in ,many ways subjective but usually, whether you like the personality or not, a strong one sticks out. Often at a very young age already. Strong personalities...don't need bs to be noticed. You put a strong personality in a group of people all dressed "normal" and the eyes of most observers cannot help but be drawn to that person. That is what is called a "strong personality". I am not sure in how far that is "subjective". I suspect about as much as one can spot the weak personality as well. Many a crook lives by knowing how to do that...because it is not all that subjective.
And you misinterpreted completely what I said ( which should make you wonder about your interpretation of Gaga's "art" LOL).
I did not say she doesn't derive much inspiration from her life. I said that the "inspiration" she derives, she derives from Madonna's life via Madonna's work ( and yes also from others' but mostly Madonna) and most importantly the way Madonna worked the media and through the media her public.
And THAT brother, isn't even about pop music or any kind of music...it's about fame for Gaga. Her need for it.
No amount of sociologist's or art critic's words are going to confuse me into mistaking a need for fame with the need to create art or music. Which is what defines an artist/musician as opposed to most pop musicians.
Just thinking..wouldn't it be really funny if actually by that "not me" at the end she actually meant that she doesn't consider Gaga's song "stolen" from her but a song independent of her's ?
ReplyDeleteAnd nobody is getting that, not the Madonna fans, who hear the similarity but also not the Gaga fans ( because they too hear the similarity). Now THAT would be an awesomely subtle shade ;D
She does not need to be shading (which I feel she is slightly, in a comical way that is) but she is the queen of pop and while she might not be hitting the top stop these days her contribution and work in the industry where divas are concerned is second to none.
ReplyDeleteMDNA is a controversial album in that it is soooo polarizing its unreal but that only appeals further for her, her career is not only based on writing catchy classic tunes its also based on manipulating the media to meet her own ends, and that's always been the case, only now its so much more obvious than ever especially as DD says (when she needs that bit of exposure) but hey she is the queen and at this stage in the game she can pretty much do whatever the f**k she wants lol
I totally agree, and apart from them both being pop musicians who push the boundaries here and there, there is nothing much else going on to be fair. No one can deny M being the queen but Gaga has the potential to get there is she plays her cards right. People who love a bit of dance-pop (like most of us here) should be celebrating them both not getting the claws out ready to shred lol
ReplyDeletepick your favourites between gaga and Madonna all you want but it should be noted that lady gaga has never once said a bad work publicly against Madonna , sure she might call her every name in the book in her dressing room but id rather have her do that than have some older woman make cheap digs ,infact whe the whole Christina fight happened lady gaga reply'd "i love Christina, shes a sexy b##ch "... Madonna ur 53 ! and u have a 26 year old acting with like you should .
ReplyDeleteTwo wrongs don't make one right ;)
ReplyDeleteCan I pick option 3 please and say neither is a favorite of mine.
To "take revenge with meaningless fame"? When has Gaga ever said this? The fame Gaga speaks of is inner fame- which trasnslates to finding confidence and love for yourself. Of course it is a simplistic message, but all the more powerful for it. I can't think of another performer at the moment who has touched so many of their fans as deeply as Gaga has, so I trust her message is resonating.
ReplyDeleteNow I have just told you that Gaga is a 24/7 performer, so her moves are undoubtedly calculated. Her persona itself was what I found so genius about her in the first place. You need to have creativity and connectiveness to make that kind of art, not necesarilly an overly sharp and articulate mouth. Lol I don't consider her going to Tisch or getting straight A's in high school as an indicator of how "good" of an artist she is, I simply look at what she creates. Look up the manifesto of Little Monster and Mother Monster to see that she is very aware about what she's doing.
I understand what you mean about pop singers being so wrapped up in sales figures that they unlikely have a greater motivation than how much they're gaining. I agree that Gaga wants to badly be remembered, but I believe she wants to be remembered for a purpose. I don't agree with the notion that one must separate art from commerciality. Are James Cameron, Tim Burton, Tarantino, etc not artists to you because they create blockbusters? In my opinion it would be a waste to disregard pop art, because it reflects so much about us as a collective society while reaching a huge amount of people. I process public figures as symbols that reflect our culture in a certain time.
And I feel Gaga took what Madonna cultivated as a pioneer and brought it to a whole other level of appreciation. Someday Gaga will have the same done to her.
It's getting to that point where it's like, "Can we just drop it?" I am a Gaga fan, I don't care much for Madonna, I mean, I don't listen to her music so I don't know her. Gaga doesn't seem to care much either, she's on a huge tour, she's very successful, and Madonna may just be the only one doing any fighting. No one is this world is original, everything is inspired by something, and the sooner people understand that, the better.
ReplyDeleteYes, the way to "drop it" is to leave a comment . :)
ReplyDeleteAnd especially one showing you don't get the actual point of contention.
One of Gaga's producers finally responded! He said he's okay with it because he gets paid every time she sings it.
ReplyDeleteAll you stans need to quiet down and get a grip. Clearly there's some serious bias going on where there needs to be objective criticism.
ReplyDeleteIt's no secret that Born This Way has some pretty obvious similarities to Express Yourself. Likewise, the chorus of Give Me All Your Luvin' sounds just like Bohemian Like Me by Dandy Warhols. WHO CARES??
When she was called out for "copying"/"borrowing" from Madonna, Gaga acknowledged the similarities and that was the end of it until the whole "reductive" comment came from Madonna.
The whole thing is just overdone and it's at a level so far above where it needed to be.
DeleteObjectively, it seems like Madonna is making some sort of power play to push herself back to the top of the pop heirarchy, but this stunt just came off as rude and childish.
There's nothing remotely interesting about this apparently one-sided feud and the issue needed to be completely squashed a long time ago.
DeleteYes, I get it. Everything I find despicable about Gaga's act, you consider "Art" and a positive.
ReplyDeleteWhen she said that? On stage in between songs during that show of her tour.
And again I have to say, I don't buy into a person whose whole life is a self professed "act" , and a heavily costumed one at that, being all that full of confidence and love for oneself. Nor someone who needs fame that badly for that matter. If you need all that confirmation you are in fact quite the opposite of confident and self loving. Any psychologist and anybody with common sense can tell you that.And there are plenty of famous people who will and have admitted to that very fact.
I never said art has to be separated from commercialism though. What I said is that it's about which need is being fulfilled in the supposed artist. I don't think Gaga has a need to create art. I see no indication of that being her primary or even A need. What I see and hear is a need for fame. "fame" is not a work of art.
That is why I call her whole act/life an achievement of commercialism, not art.
I'm with Fran on this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x5y5rjRF4I
And btw Burton and Tarantino..yes they are artists. Cameron...not even close. That's actually a nice list demonstrating that a lack of success is no more an indication whether someone is creating art then huge success is.
And I agree public figures USED to be symbols reflecting the culture of a given time but that natural system has been corrupted by commercialism for some time now. Decades in fact.Most public figures no longer are symbols of the actual culture, they are symbolic of what mass media wants us to think is "the culture".
And in actual fact, I can think of plenty of performers who have touched just as many people deeply who did it with ...their actual art. Not the flash and soundbites around it.. Because frankly, I certainly am not going to buy into a pretense that every fan of Gaga is "touched deeply" by her act. The majority are simply teenagers jumping on a bandwagon until the next ride comes along.
A cover is not the same as "stealing" a song.( unless you are Jeff Buckley and manage to do both at the same time. Come to think ...add reductive to that as well. ;D)
ReplyDeleteOh yes, Madonna always knew how to work publicity. Not sure what "shade" means in this context of the blog but I have to admit. if I was in her shoes, I'd probably also stoop to digs at Gaga. ;)
ReplyDeleteThe more I find out, the more disingenuous I find Gaga. I much prefer Madonna's cattiness over Gaga's fakeness.
Probably for the same reason I feel Madonna's" Express Yourself" which I find sounds like it comes from a position of strength over Gaga's "Born This Way" which sounds to me like coming from a position of victim trying to sound strong, is the better song. Bit like the way my dog puts on a big show whenever he feels insecure.
And hearing the songs next to each other like that, "derivative" is putting it pretty mildly.
Ah well, I am not a Madonna "fan". I like some of her tunes and love some of her vids but I don't even have any of her music bought/downloaded or in any other way, in my possession.
ReplyDeleteBut I do like that as far as I can tell, however much she used other people's work and looks , the main inspiration was always within herself.The themes were hers.
Blimey - I wish Madonna would grow up. It's only a chord structure at the end of the day, about a billion songs probably use it. I also find her talking about reductiveness quite hilarious when I remember that AWFUL 'American Pie' cover she did (WITH RUPERT EVERETT ON BACKING VOCALS!) a few years back. People in glass houses and all that...
ReplyDeleteYes, the way to "drop it" is to leave a comment . :)
ReplyDeleteAnd especially one showing you don't get the actual point of contention.
Okay, so if Madonna is really throwing shade (which she probably is) she could have done so by releasing a great album this year to really show why she is the Queen of Pop, that she did not.
ReplyDeletei thought so to, but I've come across Madonna fans who say otherwise. And I love LOVE LOOOVE watching Grumpy old women!!! lol!
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